The connection between sexual abuse and obsessive content related to sexuality deserves further study. I will consider two different situations, the first concerning a gay guy who has been abused in childhood and who presents a gay sexuality deeply conditioned by the experience of the abuse, the second concerning a straight guy who has been abused in adolescence and has developed a gay-themed OCD (I will only deal with the case of a OCD that had already manifested before the abuse). The situations, despite their substantial differences, have a fundamental aspect in common: the identification of the victim with the abuser. Let’s start with the first situation.
1) A gay guy, who has been sexually abused in childhood, has a gay sexuality that in the first meetings with his partners does not present particular problems but, if the relationship deepens, the guy gets to confess to his partner that he has been sexually abused, nevertheless he does not tend to feel as the victim but almost as the co-responsible if not as the promoter of the abuse, he tries anyhow to involve his partner in his obsessive fantasies concerning the abuse with insistently (obsessively) repeated questions about the circumstances of the abuse, asking him what he would do if he found himself in similar situations; faced with evasive or patently disinterested responses, the guy seems incredulous and attributes the lack of interest in sharing that particular sexual fantasies on the part of his partner to an alleged moralism of the partner himself, however the insistence does not cease even in the face of an obvious lack of interest but becomes even more pressing, as if the guy wanted to obtain a confession analogous to his own. The obsessive insistence on the partner goes as far as to induce him, in more or less long time, to distance himself and interrupt the relationship.
It is evident that the memory of the abuse has become a sexual archetype from which it is difficult to get free, and here a mechanism characteristic of the abuse is triggered: the victim imagines himself in the role of the abuser, situations of discomfort even very strong are created this way, because the victim sees himself as a potential pedophile and develops pedophile fantasies in which he assumes, in an oscillating manner, both the role of victim and abuser.
Basically the projective identification with the abuser and his behaviors favors guilt feelings and strongly weakens the possibility of rationalizing the memory of the abuse and of living a sexuality not deeply conditioned by the abuse itself.
2) In the case of the straight guy with a pre-existing gay themed OCD, the abuse in adolescence creates objective complications that cannot be ignored because it does nothing but feed the OCD, even though it cannot actually destroy the guy’s straight sexuality. The mechanism of identification with the abuser, in this case, cannot lead to true gay sexual fantasies (because the guy is a straight guy) but only to obsessions and gay compulsions which, as is usually the case in the OCD, remain, at most, at the level of masturbation and, in almost all cases, never materialize in real sexual relationships. The gay-themed compulsions and obsessions are perceived as deeply disturbing compared to the true sexuality that is and anyway remains straight.
The identification with the abuser can however be more complex when the abuser is not really a gay man but he is a married man or a man who has children, that is when the abuser is or appears to be a straight adult, with whom the straight guy with OCD can easily identify on the basis of the following projective mechanism: ”He is straight because he is married and has children, but if he abused me it means he also had gay fantasies and could not refrain from putting them into practice, but I am straight too, because I have a girlfriend and I have sex with her, but I also have gay fantasies, so in the end I won’t be able to stop myself and I’ll end up needing to have sex with a man. How can I be with a girl if I already desire men and know that sooner or later I will betray her with a man? I am fooling my girlfriend into believing that I am straight, but it is not so!”
In this case the identification mechanism acts through different paths but it is no less disruptive than in the case of the gay guy and creates the risk, sometimes lived obsessively, but objectively not very concrete, to lead to the breakdown the relationship with the girl.
The deeper identification with the abuser leads to two closely related consequences:
1) the responsibility of the abuser appears to be much lighter;
2) even if in such situations it’s evident that in any case no responsibility can be charged on the victim, the victim himself overestimates his own presumed responsibility up to the point to consider his own behavior decisive, and consequently to experience guilt feelings objectively unjustified.
In the two cases presented, the most suitable conditions to overcome obsessive thinking are realized when the guys have their ”real” emotional life, that is:
1) in the first case, when the gay guy lives not a unilateral falling in love but an authentic love story with a guy with whom a relationship is created that is completely independent of the fantasies related to abuse, fantasies which can also remain but marginalized and spontaneously not shared, fantasies that are not considered as a taboo but are very rarely argument of conversation. In essence the stories that materialize or tend to materialize only or mainly in terms of more or less spontaneous sharing of fantasies linked to abuse are not true love stories and therefore do not contribute to the overcoming of obsessive thinking;
2) in the second case, when the straight guy lives a love story in which the girl knows that the guy has been abused and realizes that the obsessive thought linked to the OCD can cause the guy to question his heterosexuality. The OCD has a strong conditioning capacity in two cases:
a) when the girl tries to ignore obsessive contents, pretending that they do not exist;
b) when the girl emphasizes the obsessive contents and offers them a sound box that amplifies their effect.
OCD must be tackled with awareness but without dramatization.
If you want, you can participate in the discussion of this post open on the Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-sexual-abuse-and-obsessive-contents
This post will try to summarize the effects of sexual education on gay sexuality.
First of all it is necessary to define the concept of sexual education. We start from a premise: the development of studies indicates that sexuality has a genetic-epigenetic base which is substantially defined already in the uterus and at most in the perinatal period. This genetic-epigenetic imprint determines not only the sex, that is, gender belonging in anatomical and physiological terms, but also the gender identity, that is, the perception of gender and sexual orientation.
The awareness of sexuality, its models, the more or less repressed manifestations of sexuality over the years, and the consequences on an individual psychological level, are instead largely determined by that familiar and social interaction, which we can call “sexual education” and which is not limited to just a single part of life, but follows the evolution of the individual according to the progressing of age.
The fact that sexuality, understood in its most profound aspects, is closely connected with the affectivity induces to consider sex education as an integral part of affective education.
A concept, in the educational field, should never be forgotten: education acts on the basis of an individual biological genetic-epigenetic substratum but is also linked to the stages of development, to possible pathologies and many other factors. Education means to develop the potential of an individual “respecting first of all the biological identity”. A good gardener knows that by placing an apple tree in the ideal conditions for the cultivation of an apricot tree, not only we will not be able to obtain apricots from the apple tree, but it will suffer a lot and may even die. Cultivating a tree means understanding first of all what tree it is and then providing it with the appropriate care for that specific tree. This is also true for people.
Let’s start from the family dimension, i.e. from emotional-sexual education inside the family.
The family is the first environment in which a child begins to build relationships. In order to begin to feel an affective gratification, the child must perceive the sense of acceptance and affectionate care from the parents. If the child is the subject of confrontation (unwanted children, doubtful parenthood, a child that has become an object of contention between parents and grandparents or between the parents themselves), he easily becomes aware that he’s not the center of family life and begins to experience the sensation of marginality and abandonment yet in tender age.
Perceiving the disagreement between the parents is inherently traumatic and transmits automatically, by imitation, a model of behavior that is not emotional but competitive, stimulates aggressiveness in one direction and sense of frustration in the other. The child also instinctively senses the discrepancy between words and behavior. Cuddling a child for a while and then leaving him alone in the walker or in front of the television not only causes a sense of abandonment but also provides an initial model of falsehood: “I love you so much, but you must keep calm and stay aside because I have other things to do!” The speech is basically inconsistent and false because it brings together declarations of affection and behaviors that show disinterest.
Often the frustrations of parents, their claiming attitudes, their blaming of this or that, their justifying only themselves, transmit to the child the feeling of unreliability of the parent who begins to be a faltering reference point. Nothing is worse than raising your voice to impose your point of view, and I don’t even want to talk about the possible physical violence in the family, which is experienced by the child in a devastating way: a father who tugs at his mother, who slaps her, a mother who plays hysterical scenes and screams at her husband, represent models that the child will certainly internalize, or by imitation or contrast, identifying, according to the situations, as an aggressive person or as a victim, and this will move the child away from the emotional contact, which is the true purpose of emotional education.
There are several other behaviors, apparently neutral, which transmit a sense of insecurity to the child:
1) A parent who speaks in the singular setting himself against the other (“I … while your mother …”) . The use of “we/us” conveys the idea of affective family, harmony and solidarity.
2) To talk too often about money or about who brings home money, or about social hierarchies that don’t see parents at the same level.
3) To speak badly about other people the child knows.
4) To show that it is difficult or impossible to speak with the other parent, that he/she has defects, that doesn’t care for the family and, worse of the worst, doesn’t care for children.
The presence of parents in the life of young children, up to preadolescence, should be constant, affectionate, dialoguing and never abstractly normative.
A particular consideration must be given to managing family conflicts that may arise, and indeed inevitably arise in the family over the years. It can be the conflicts of the parents with other relatives, of between parents themselves and also of the conflicts between parents and children. The management of conflicts must always be discursive and shared, no form of violence, even verbal, can be admitted for no reason. Recognizing the other’s reasons and seeking conciliation doesn’t indicate weakness but the exact opposite. The child must realize that the parent can see things in another way and you can talk to find a point of equilibrium without coming to breakage.
Affective education suffers a violent trauma when the parent-child relationship is dominated by the fear of the parent’s violent reactions. Even worse is the idea that a parent invokes the presence of the other parent to induce fear in the children, such in the classic: “I’ll tell your father!”
As one grows, one element takes on particular importance: confidence, which must be accompanied by confidentiality on the part of the parent. If a parent receives a confidence by the child, he must keep it for himself, if he doesn’t, he would induce the child to immediately interrupt the relationship of confidence with the parent that will anymore be resumed. Any attitude that shows the tendency of the parent to abandon himself to gossip, devalues him in the eyes of his son and reduces the possibilities for dialogue.
A general criterion must always be kept in mind: education operates through the example, not through words: children tend to assimilate and imitate parents’ behavior, not to put into practice what parents say in words but don’t do themselves.
What has been said so far, as it is easy to understand, requires from parents a substantial affective maturity that too often is taken for granted, assuming that the parent is always substantially up to the task of education and that at most he needs a training aimed at the conscious rethinking of contents and methods of education. Sometimes however, and not very rarely, these assumptions don’t occur, in some cases because parents themselves have been in turn educated (assuming that this word can be used in these situations) with completely improper and substantially non-educational methods, and in other cases because one or both parents can be psychopathological subjects (for example paranoid or perverse narcissists). While in the first case it is possible with regard to the parent a concrete action (even if of long duration and with uncertain outcome) of reorientation or re-education of the adult, in the second case such action is essentially impossible and the parent-child educational relationship can turn into a framework of family violence and abuse, up to the most extreme consequences. It should be emphasized that violence and family abuse practiced by paranoid or perverse narcissists parents are often not visible on the outside and create very deep suffering in the children with unforeseeable consequences even in the long term.
Sex education of the child
Today, children are bombarded starting from an early age with images more or less erotic and very often begin to take an interest in sexuality in a very abstract way well before adolescence, so they assimilate, in a very tender age, banal visions of the sexuality as a “forbidden game”. Pedagogues have often been concerned with how to convey to children a more correct concept of sexuality: typical is the model of the flower, the pollination and the fruit, but in this way there is the risk, for gays far from being indifferent, to provide only the concept of sexuality aimed at reproduction, this will also convey the concept of sexual role, of the boy and girl as society conceives them, and of typically male and typically female behavior, taking for natural and obvious cultural attitudes often very questionable.
Accustom a little girl to the idea that femininity involves high heels and makeup means distort the concept from the beginning, like to think that the boy should be interested necessarily in football and in certain types of games is in itself misleading. It is very easy to see that in a school class of children who are not yet pre-adolescent, boys tend to play “boyish” games with each other, and girls tend to play “girlish” games with each other and this is the result of an education for sexual roles, how society understands them, starting from an early age.
The child before puberty sometimes shows an embryonal hetero affectivity, which involves interest in being with little girls, talking with them, playing with them, or an embryonal gay affectivity, which involves interest in being with other boys, talking to them and playing with them. These behaviors are the first manifestations of sexual orientation, they are not yet conscious, but they are elements on which we should reflect a lot and to which we should pay the utmost attention, but, I must say very clearly, never a repressive attention. I would like to point out that the transmission of role models deforms and often stifles these spontaneous tendencies altogether and tends to let the tendency towards homologation prevail, based on the fear of marginality within the peer group.
In the memory of many gays, the recollection of the first affectionate friendships with other boys and often the worried attitudes of the parents in front of such manifestations remains well imprinted. We are talking about friendships between children, not yet pre-adolescent who, if not totally conditioned by education, begin to show signs of homo-affinity or hetero-affectivity.
Parents, who often lack a broader horizon on sexuality, consider themselves as the only possible model for the sexuality of their children. The idea that children are not and cannot be a photocopy of parents is still struggling to get accepted. It is precisely for this reason that some children’s behaviors alarm parents and trigger a short communication circuit that ends up disrupting trust and establishing suspicious attitudes.
The child who plays with dolls or puts on his mother’s high heels or wig or dresses up as a woman generally raises questions in the parents, and this happens even more strongly if two children develop a very close friendship. Apart from the fact that these are completely different phenomena, because the first refers to gender identity and the second to sexual orientation, it is very probable that the child experiences in these situations the concern of the parent that manifests itself through limitations, prohibitions or simple removals.
The basic criterion of a good sex education is to promote the spontaneous development of affectivity and sexuality, avoiding a repressive sanctioning behaviors. The parent facing behaviors that are not what he would have expected believes that it is his duty to “correct”, to “guide” the child’s behavior, to “defend” him from dangerous influences, this attitude, which is perfectly understandable, is acceptable , positive and necessary, if “to correct ” means to demonstrate by example how one can have affection and respect for friends, without demanding too much and without running away from one’s duties towards those friends, if “to drive ” means to explain, to make the child understand the meaning of affective relationships even in adult life, for example by receiving friends cordially and affectionately, if “defending” from dangerous influences means to accustom children not to trivialize, not to exploit friendship, to take it seriously and to respond adequately when the need arises, but “to correct” means for many parents only to repress, “to drive” means to remove freedom and “to defend” means to segregate.
I would like to stress that the signs of homo-affectivity are generally very precocious and repressing them means inducing the guilt and submission of the child who begins to consider himself wrong. The repression of infantile homo-affectivity sometimes manifests itself explicitly, and sometimes through a systematic attempt to remove the child from contexts in which that homo-affectivity tends to manifest: if the child has developed a strong friendship towards another child or even towards a boy a little older during the summer holidays at the sea, the next year instead of going to the sea the family will go to the mountains.
A very delicate subject in this area is the prevention of sexual violence and abuse. Clearly, the child’s segregation reaches the goal but at the cost of a total repression of the individual freedom. The real problem lies in avoiding the risks (which are not only fancy) leaving the child a freedom commensurate with his age. Leaving a child (under 12-13 years ) alone for the whole day together with his playmates exposes him to objective dangers, which he may not realize. But if sexual abuses perpetrated by external pedophile subjects are generally the most feared, experience teaches that abuses are practiced only exceptionally by strangers and for the most part they rise from a family environment. Parking children by relatives or friends from morning to night means abandoning them to situations that can be objectively risky.
Before 12-13 years it is good that the child finds its spaces for the most part with the presence of the parents: the parents speak in the living room, the children play in the next room. Parents in this way give their children an example of socializing and leave them freedom spaces according to their age.
Beyond the age of 12-13, the risk of abuse doesn’t cease because abuse can also be committed toward adolescents or preadolescents both by family members and by educators, priests or teachers, especially in contexts where the minor cohabits with other peers for education or care purposes. Particular attention should be dedicated to the education of responsible use of the web for the risks of priming to which minors are exposed on the net. It is important to be vigilant in order to catch any signs of disturbance, alarm or exaltation in children, talk to them about it, if it is possible, and contact the postal department or the local Police Office to receive assistance when faced with dangerous situations. Obviously, the best prevention of priming risks on the net is realized right through risk awareness, the habit of always thinking before acting, and the habit of protecting one’s own privacy and that of others, and on these aspects education has a decisive influence.
When a child manifests the first forms of curiosity in relation to sexuality, it should be taken seriously, avoiding trivializing and manifesting evasive attitudes. It is essential that sexuality is never detached from its affective implications and is not reduced exclusively to procreative purposes. The child must become familiar with the idea of a sexuality that is not a forbidden game but a manifestation of affection for another person. Many parents never show explicit emotional behaviors in front of their children, for example, the father and mother don’t hug each other in front of children and avoid any physical act with each other, even the simple caresses, others instead let themselves go to forms of more or less sexual play in front of their children who in this way feel themselves excluded from the relationship with their parents. Of course
It’s necessary to find a balance between these opposing attitudes: the spontaneous caresses and affections between parents, the cuddles, which end up with the involvement of the children in the affection of the parents themselves are extremely positive in stabilizing the mood and in developing a harmonious character in the children. The double bed must become a non-exclusive environment, reserved for the parents only, but must be an environment in which children can also be admitted. The physical contact with parents, commensurate with the age of children, must lead to the idea of the affectionate embrace between adults, which expresses participation and sympathy.
Let’s come now to one of the key points of the speech: how to deal with the issue of homosexuality. The parent who is explicitly dealing such an argument with the child for the first time, must never forget that if one takes for granted that one’s son is hetero, in 8 cases out of 100 he is mistaken. Sending positive messages about homosexuality certainly doesn’t induce heterosexuals to become homosexuals, but can help homosexuals to grow accepting without complexes their homosexuality. Many parents believe that the specifically sexual education of children is not up to parents and should be delegated to school, church, doctors and other educational agencies, as if sexuality were an object of study or a question of faith or health protection. Obviously all these aspects are not foreign to sexuality, which, however, is a very complex reality that cannot be considered only under sectoral perspectives.
Sexuality is a component of the ordinary life of all of us and one of the essential contents of a serious educational relationship. I have been dealing with homosexuals for many years and I have often seen gay adult men, still deeply conditioned by the conflicting relationships with parents due to homosexuality. The vast majority of homosexuals not publicly declared, speak about their own homosexuality just with a few trustworthy friends, while those who talk about it openly in the family are very rare, perhaps today less than ten years ago, but it is still a narrow minority. For a gay boy, talking to his parents and finding their respect and their affection even in an atmosphere of clarity is absolutely essential and stabilizing. On the other hand, misunderstanding and rejection leave deep traces and greatly complicate the achievement of true autonomy on the part of the children.
I add a fundamental thing: a gay boy who feels accepted within the family will not need to go and look for other environments in which to find understanding and tends to develop his affective life without hiding and for this reason objectively also running much less risks. When a gay guy presents his boyfriend to his parents (what was once unthinkable and now becomes more and more possible) he realizes at 100% the dimension of the normality of his affectivity-sexuality. Surprised, reticent, perplexed or hostile attitudes of parents severely undermine their children’s self-esteem and create often irreparable fractures.
I would like to touch on a very delicate last subject. Sometimes the boys who grow up, whether they are heterosexual or gay, find themselves instinctively experiencing drives that alarm them, classics are examples of sexual fantasies about much older people, pedophile fantasies, sadistic or masochistic fantasies and erotic drives addressed within their own family. It is objectively very difficult that topics of this kind enter explicitly in speeches between parents and children regarding sexuality, because if the fear of negative reactions to homosexuality is already strong, the fear of negative reactions to those contents can be much more alarming. The issue of pedophilia can be responsibly tackled by highlighting the very serious objective damage that those behaviors can cause but stressing nevertheless the fact that those tendencies can exist even in very good people who would never put them into practice. If there is an attitude that a parent must show in front of such things, it can only be to clearly distinguish the fantasies that one cannot control, from the actions that can and must be taken under control. A similar argument can be used also regarding sadistic and incestuous fantasies.
With regard to intergenerational relationships it is necessary to avoid confusing them with larval forms of pedophilia, because intergenerational relationships are relationships between consenting adults even if of very different ages.
A correct attitude in the face of all these things helps people feel understood and accepted and enhances their morality and their capacity for discernment and this is the basic premise to accept themselves and to be able to self-control. It should be emphasized, however, that pedophile fantasies, of which people almost never speak in a scientifically correct way, are a reality very complex and difficult to manage. In many cases these fantasies are found in adults who have in turn been victims of violence or sexual abuse. It should be clarified that, although fantasies and actions are distinct things, it happens that fantasies are or may be prodromal to actual or possible behaviors, which, even if only considered merely as hypotheses, can cause levels of profound suffering.
Slipping from fantasies to pedophile behaviors can sometimes become easy and almost obvious. The sex tourism, for example, can lead the adult to look for more and more young partners of one or the other sex, producing a slow but effective slip towards pedophilia. The use of Internet child pornography should be considered as a sign strongly indicative of a dangerous corroboration of fantasies, prodromal to possible pedophile behaviors. According to what I learn from people who experience pedophile fantasies I’m led to believe that slipping into occasional pedophile behaviors, which can be the origin of recurring pedophile phantasies, also of obsessive types, is certainly possible even for people who have never had previously this kind of fantasies.
A person who experienced this kind of fantasies told me: “I had never had such fantasies before, then it happened to me an experience in which it would have been easy to come to the action, but it didn’t happen, but taking a step without return would have been very easy. And since then, such fantasies remained strongly stamped in my mind. I don’t like them, that somehow compromised my sexuality for years because I think that I wouldn’t even talk about such things with my partner, because he would react badly.”
I will not analyze here the possible compulsive aspects of pedophilia but because many men who have pedophilic fantasies are aware of it and are afraid of being able to practice pedophile behavior, in some countries (in Germany, in England and in the US) there are support services who deal with prevention by providing specialized psychological support to those who request it because they experience pedophile tendencies.
At the general educational level there is still an ancestral fear towards psychologists and psychiatrists that should be eliminated, leading people to understand that they are health workers who can provide psychological and even pharmacological support if necessary. Prevention education, which deserves a detailed examination, is not only carried out in providing information on sexually transmitted diseases, but also in the prevention of other risky behaviors for oneself and for others such as pedophile ones.
Certainly less sensitive are the themes related to the couple’s relationship structure: monogamy, indissolubility, socialization and formalization of the couple’s relationship, relationship between friendship and love. Insisting on the legitimacy of a single behavioral model collides with the reality of affective life which is often not monogamous, not unbreakable neither reducible to structure. The meaning of the couple relationship is usually assimilated by imitation already in childhood and, according to the general rule, is transmitted through the behavior of adults and not through their speeches. The relational aspect of sexuality should never be overlooked, according to this relational aspect the fundamental satisfaction in a sexual relationship derives from the realization that our partner is really involved and is in turn gratified by the relationship. Needless to say, these must be relationships that are actually wanted consciously and freely by both partners.
If you want, you can participate in the discussion of this post open on the Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-gays-and-sexual-education
I took a quick look at the book Being Gay, it is truly monumental, from small tastings it seems interesting to me and it is extraordinary that it can be downloaded at no cost. You have done a useful job, I don’t add other adjectives.
I am a 25-year-old guy, I live in Northern Italy, so in an environment that should be gay friendly. Here there are gay associations but, if I refer to that mythical 8% of gays, I have to conclude that those who attend associations are a small minority and I don’t tell you the comments I hear about them by a lot of people.
Where are all the other gays? I don’t see them anywhere, so even here gays are scared, and I think they do well to be afraid because the social climate is not good at all, and actually it’s even worse than it was a few years ago.
At school I didn’t know a single gay guy, no one declared himself, and exposing himself too much was dangerous. The dating sites and the App, which everyone talks about, are not for me, they seem to me a squalid thing. My gay life, let’s call it so, started at university.
I attended and I’m finishing up attending a faculty with few students, not even forty the first year and then around 30 or even less until the end, they are almost all guys, girls are quite rare, in my course I think they are only five, well, a few weeks after the start of the lessons of my first year I realized that, let’s say, I was not alone, and that the compulsory attendance was not only useful for the exams but also to build relationships with the other guys.
In practice, the university works on two levels, one formal, official, in which there are relationships with teachers, objectively very technical and very limited, even if we are very few, because the courses are short and are very dense with content, and the other underground, but not too much, in which the very fact of being together from morning to night creates in us, young people, a climate of collaboration that favors the birth of friendships, and, in some cases, even something more.
In the morning we start the lessons at 8.00 and then, with various intervals we finish around 17.00. We eat at the canteen, perhaps at different times, depending on the lessons, but it is a very small service, only for our faculty and we study practically all together, even if divided into groups. Even those who live close to the university don’t come home, because together we feel good. I do not speak of large groups but groups of three or four guys, we have two study rooms for each year of the course and these rooms are also well equipped. Groups should be formed on the basis of uniform interests, and that is what has happened, but in general it is not a matter of study interests.
I don’t even know how it happened, but it happened, I found myself with two other colleagues, we chose each other instinctively, we were fine together, at the beginning we didn’t know at all that we were three gays, for me, it was a completely new world to be discovered, I felt that with those guys the relationship was different from what I had with others, there was no competition, there was only a great desire to be together, to work together and even more.
The two guys of my small group of study, Louis and Antony, were very different, Louis was a nice guy, but he was not my type, he was pleasant, reassuring, but physically attracted me little, while Antony was very insecure, always hesitant, he was tall, blond and with blue eyes, with hair a little longish, he was a bit neurotic and complexed by the fear of being out of place, to annoy, he apologized for everything, even for very trivial things, with him I too felt a little anxious because I didn’t want to make him feel uncomfortable.
I knew almost immediately that Louis was gay, because it was he who told me it: “to avoid misunderstandings”, he added. I avoided to tell him that I too was gay. Louis was fine with me and with Antony, but from what I understood he had a boyfriend and so he had his life, we were his study friends and maybe we would have also become friends of confidences, but his basic interests were elsewhere.
With Antony things were very different, when we were alone together we felt a certain embarrassment, we often talked about Louis or other guys. At one point Antony told me: “Do you know that Louis is gay? He told me it this morning …” I replied that I knew, I saw a moment of perplexity on the face of Antony, I think he wondered why I hadn’t told him, but he didn’t comment and I think he appreciated my discretion. I was hoping that the dialogue on the subject would widen but it didn’t happen and it ended there.
We felt very well when we were there, the three of us, but when I was alone with Antony I didn’t know what to say or what to do, he had an embarrassed and embarrassing behavior, he never spoke of girls and even less of guys but it seemed to me that a good relationship had been created between us.
When we had to separate, in the evening, none of us took the initiative, and a quarter of an hour after a quarter of an hour we came home very late almost every night, but we didn’t talk too much, we spent almost all the time in silence. Among other things, when I was alone with him I was also embarrassed because I was almost always in erection and I was afraid that he would notice. From what I saw, he didn’t even give a minimum sign of erection and I didn’t like this thing at all.
The hypothesis that he was gay didn’t seem too realistic to me despite the fact that he tended to stay always with me. I feared that our relationship could turn into a relationship of dependency but in a sense I felt very attracted to Antony. I came to think that I should tell him that I was gay, because if he had found out it by himself or if he knew it from others he might feel uncomfortable.
One of the long nights spent walking back and forth around the city, I took courage and told him it, he answered me: “Don’t worry, I had understood it for some time” I asked him how he had understood it and he told me: “When you stay with me you’re hard all the time …” I asked him: “Does this embarrass you?” He replied: “If I felt embarrassed I would not be here …” Then he continued: “You want to know if I’m gay too? “I nodded and he said:” Yes, I feel gay, or at least I don’t feel straight but sex is a bit of an obsession and a bit of a frustration for me … ” And then we finally entered the topic.
This was more or less the speech:
“I’ve never fallen in love with a girl, while when I’m close to you I feel at ease, and I feel at ease even if you are in erection and perhaps especially for that. You will tell me that I am stupid, but I am really complexed by these things, I think I am very feminine, I don’t feel like a woman, but I think I have female physical movements and attitudes.”
“Who? You? No! Not at all!”
“You also saw Louis, he too is gay, but he is very masculine, no one would take him for gay …”
“No! Antony, no! Take these things off your head! You’re a beautiful guy, and you’re very masculine, you’re not rough, you’re not massive but thin, but rest assured that you’re 100% masculine … ”
“Well … maybe … ”
“But why do you feel conditioned in sex?”
“For me, sex has never been a simple thing, I’ve never been with anyone … ”
“Not even me if this is the problem … ”
“Yes, but you go into erection when I’m there, I on the contrary feel only embarrassed, I’m completely stuck, I think I would feel totally uncomfortable being with a guy … ”
“I think these are just fears, when it happens you will realize that it’s a very simple thing … ”
“I don’t think it will ever happen … ”
“But at least when you do it by yourself … there are no fears … ”
“When I do it by myself, as you say, and it’s a very rare thing, afterwards, I feel sick … ”
“But why? There’s nothing wrong … ”
“I’ll tell you something that nobody knows … I as a child, not even as a child, as a boy, because the first time it happened I was 14, I was raped by an uncle, and the story went on for a month, I was really afraid of him, at the end I couldn’t stand him anymore, I threatened him that if he came back I would have told my father and he disappeared. He was 44 years old and I have been really raped from behind … I don’t tell you how I felt when I experienced my first gay feelings, something disgusting, I don’t want to be gay, being gay sucks me … now maybe you can understand … ”
“Oh my God I would never have imagined, if you want I take you home, I don’t want to create difficulties of any kind … ”
“Please shut up! … Let me go on with what I’m saying, I am a victim of homosexuality and I don’t want to be gay, I don’t even know if you can understand such a thing, but even if the memory of those things really disgusts me, I ended up becoming gay just for that reason … ”
“No, Antony, now it’s you the one who has to shut up … but which “to become”? And then you say that your uncle was was gay but I don’t think so.”
“What do you mean?”
“I’m gay, I have the pleasure of being near you, even sexual pleasure, it’s like that and I’m not ashamed at all of this, but I never imagined penetrating a guy from behind, really never.”
“That’s because you were been given an education.”
“No! This is because I’m gay!”
“I didn’t understand … what does it mean?”
And there, dear Project, I took my smartphone and I had him read a piece of your book where you talk about these things. He was initially perplexed, then he went on to read, after a few minutes he looked at me and asked me: “So then my uncle could even be straight? … ” I told him that he probably was, because what he did was not a gay behavior. He was perplexed, confused, he insisted on asking me if I had ever had fantasies of that kind and I told him that it really had never happened.
The speech didn’t seem to him according to what he had seen in some videos in which anal penetration was always present in practice. I told him to read all your article and also the part of the book about the hetero-curious and I drove him home. He was puzzled, very meditative, but occasionally he made some gesture of satisfaction and even a few sketchy smiles.
The day after everything went on easily at university as if nothing had happened; immediately after 5.00 pm he asked me to take him home, but we went around in the car until late at night. He had read the book and seemed to have discovered a world, he told me: “Reading the book I got the very clear impression that my uncle was not gay at all and I realized that instead my fantasies are really gay. My uncle paid no attention to my penis, just zero, he never masturbated me and I was over 14 years old and I would have reacted but he never did, but he wanted me to have oral sex to him, but never did it to me, and above all there had to be the anal penetration and there was also something that I didn’t understand at all, that is the attention to my nipples, a really anomalous thing, to the nipples yes and to the penis no! Actually the overall picture was very different form that of real gay fantasies, isn’t it? Even I have never had fantasies of anal penetration but I thought it was something only mine, a refusal due to the abuse, but it seems that it is a very common thing among gays”
Since Antony was talking to me so freely I too felt obliged to do so and he was very intrigued by that speech that he didn’t expect at all. It was now night and there was little light, he asked me if I was hard, I said yes, he asked if he could touch it from outside, I said yes, he touched it for about ten seconds, then he looked at me and said: thank you! He apologized for the fact that he could not reciprocate, because he wasn’t in erection, then he thought just a second and told me: “Come on, check it, it’s right that we’re on par!”
In the following days we talked a lot less because the exams were coming and we only studied, in three at the university and then in two at my house, a single-room apartment where I lived alone because I was away from home. He came to stay at my house, because it is within a stone’s throw from the faculty. We studied a lot, we slept together in the same bed, but between us there has never been sex, not even at the minimum level. After 15 days of overwork we passed the three exams we had planned. I expected him to move back to his house but he asked me to stay, I obviously said yes.
We had long evenings to spend together and we talked a lot in a totally free way, we talked about our families, our desires and obviously also about sex. I could understand that the memory of the violence troubled him deeply and even if he too began to accept the idea that his uncle was not gay at all, still he still had many doubts about it, he asked me to talk to him about my sexual fantasies and I did, he listened to me with the utmost attention, told me that the penis seemed to him an undesirable thing, associated only to violence and this fact tore him because he also experienced homosexual fantasies but mixed with feelings of rejection. I asked him if he had felt feelings of repulsion when I had made him touch it from above my trousers and he simply replied: no!
He told me he was happy to be with me, even because I had never pressed him for any reason and that I was a positive image of gays, and finally he added: “if you are gay, I too can be so”. I liked this sentence very much and I told him enthusiastically but he replied that anyway it wouldn’t have been easy for him, that he needed time and that I had to be patient, even if we slept in the same bed.
One day, after a day of intense study we went to sleep. We turned off the light but I felt that he had not turned the other way as he always did but had remained turned towards me. At a certain moment he asks me: “Are you hard now?” I say yes and he asks me if he can touch it, I say yes and he touches it very gently, after a while he says to me: “Touch mine!” And I feel that he is hard too. He tells me that it’s the first time that this happens to him spontaneously and that he doesn’t feel rejection neither touching me nor being touched, then he adds that he doesn’t want to go any further and we stop touching but we keep talking, he tells me he’s happy but that he doesn’t want to delude himself too much and above all he doesn’t want to delude me.
We get up, get dressed, I put myself on the sofa and he lies there, resting his head on my legs. He asks me: “Do you mind?” I only answer him with a smile and he says: “I have to get used to the physical contact … I have never done such a thing.” It is very late and falls asleep on my knees, I don’t move him. When it starts to dawn I take him in my arms and bring him back to bed. He’s really a nice guy, or rather, it looks beautiful to me. I lie in bed next to him and I fall asleep too.
In the following days he seems to have completely forgotten about what had happened between us, I don’t say anything but when I sit on the couch to see the TV he almost always comes to lie down on my legs and I feel his warmth. One evening, before going to sleep, he asks me to show me naked because it has never happened before, I smile and I completely undress in front of him and I start to get a hard-on, he tells me I’m beautiful, then he undresses and he too is in erection, he comes close and hugs me tight, but very tight, almost hurting me, then asks me if we can sleep naked, of course I say yes, I put only one more cover on the bed because it’s a bit cold. We hug tightly in bed and we stay like this for very long minutes.
The next day it was as if nothing had happened between us, not in the sense that there was disinterest, but as if what had happened was absolutely normal. There was certainly more physical contact between us, there were more hugs, we stroked our hands, we leaned against each other when we were sitting on the couch, but there were no sexual contacts, nevertheless, despite this I felt happy, I saw him smile, play, make jokes, it was a beautiful thing.
One evening I see him very discouraged, he keeps me at a distance, I try to understand why and he tells me that he tried to masturbate thinking of me but that the thing didn’t arrive to its obvious end because he felt a terrible sense of rejection, something very strong, not for me but for the idea of sex in itself, it seemed to him like a dirty thing almost a way to do violence against me, to play with my image, something like a lack of respect. In short, he was really uncomfortable and I had the distinct feeling that there was very little to do and that he would never have abandoned the obsessive memory of violence. I hugged him, but he was totally passive, then I said to him: “I love you, Antony!” He replied: “I’ll never have sex with you …” I told him: “I’m just worried about losing you and this would be devastating for me … ” He told me: “I cannot do anything, I tried, but I cannot … ” I didn’t know what to say, maybe a few days before it seemed all too easy, but slowly I was beginning to doubt that with Antony I could create a story, let’s say so, a normal story, that is even with a bit of sex, I don’t say much, but at least a little to convince me that he loved me and didn’t consider me only in relation to the memory of violence. I was beginning to understand that the problem was more serious than I had imagined.
We continued to live together but we removed any behavior that could have even a vague sexual implication, we continued to sleep in the same bed but always wearing pajamas, even during the summer, and he stopped lieing on my legs when we see the TV. We are good friends, yes, true friends, friends who talk about everything with the utmost sincerity, I love him deeply but slowly I lost the confidence that Antony can become my boyfriend. It’s been years, almost four years now, Antony and I still live together, sometimes there was even a minimal attempt to sexual approach between us, that has brought more frustration and disappointment than anything else. I think Antony has in fact put aside the idea, I don’t know if we will ever come to share sex, I have many doubts about it, but I know that without Antony I would feel lost.
I never imagined that I could live my life like this, and yet I feel that this is my life, I always hope that things can change, but the first rule, for me, must be the absolute respect for Antony and his problems. For me it is not a renunciation, I have made my choice and I don’t think I would be able to live a different life.
Antony and I really love each other and we are still young and something could always change, but our love will not fail under any circumstances.
I embrace you, Project, or I hope your work will be useful for Antony as it was useful for me.
In conclusion, I must state that the e-mail above is reported in the forum with the consent of both protagonists of the story. The text is in the form of an email but has been agreed so as to avoid any risk for privacy and to be as clear as possible. In particular, the references to the faculty have been significantly modified for reasons of privacy. I must emphasize that, if it is true that this story deals with the consequences of violence and sexual abuse, the situation described is certainly not the worst, because violence and sexual abuse can really have tragic consequences. The two guys mentioned in the story you read, have built a very strong emotional relationship in which sexuality, even if limited and denied is somehow strongly present. I have to underline that I happened several times to talk with guys who had suffered violence or abuse and I could see how much these episodes have weighed on their sexuality and their emotional life.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-gay-guys-and-rejection-of-sesuality
I too have been was with a guy who has literally destroyed my life, finally after years of profound solitude (many have consoled me but no one really understood me, not having lived the same things in first person), only in this forum finally I found someone who knows how these situations can be painful. Even my ex, while never having loved me, obsessively sought me when I left him, and I came back with him many times, he had declared his feeling to me too early, he used to kiss me mechanically … it’s all so familiar, so similar to what a had read many times on the forum!
My ex is also very misogynist. He writes very angry postings on Facebook in which he says that in his life he has been only with some bitches, for him a woman is worth the other, and when I asked him reassurance about us he seemed amused not giving me any answer, he was sorry for my “affective rants”, he said I was stupid because I was a girl, a girl who doesn’t like being contradicted, and he would have liked me to be more military, harder, a real shitty woman, solar and strong. Moreover, he compared me to all the women he had known, even to my friends, to my sister, letting me understand that they were better than me.
Then when I tried to leave him he threw himself at my feet and said he had a sickness inside, which led him to treat people badly … then when I “got back” with him, he immediately became another time the usual asshole. When we had sex it seemed like a funeral march, it was something that he did without joy, and I didn’t know what he was thinking about, but he never hugged me warmly, never pampered if not with embarrassment and a sort of disgust, superficial caresses, then he immediately he used to snort saying I was a person accustomed to ask for too much. He liked, however, to receive cuddles, like a child, with the excuse that he was sick. I felt like I was his mother or a whore to be despised, depending on the moments. You cannot understand, or perhaps only you who read here, you can understand that suffering, that absurdity I have experienced.
But I do not think I’m a victim because I partly knew he was gay. I was aware of some things, the relationship he had with his best friend and his anaffectiveness, the relationship he had with his mother (this is perhaps a common place), the total disinterest he had for intimacy with me … It was as if he was missing * that thing *, and I don’t want to say the penis, but the instinct to be close to me emotionally and physically, which then becomes a body in the sexual act. He is fixed with girls, he always speaks with this tone of … I don’t know, of blame, horror, it is not clear why he runs behind them, according to what he tells about it, and in general girls refuse even his friendship because he is not able to enter their sympathies, treating them as badly as he usually does.
All this is despite his being a handsome guy, that pushes initially all girls to speak to him and become curious about him (he is also clever and witty, original and creative) … Looking back I know that he loves me very much, he simply doesn’t accept me for what I’m: a woman. He used to say that I was playing the role of the female while I behaved in an absolutely natural way. He used to watch me cry in silence as if he could not connect with my pain. Sometimes he was kind, he was not a monster, let’s be clear. But he couldn’t be a loving guy. He used to show me affection only in the scene in which he was ill and I took care of him as a mother-nurse, and he in the grip of his “depression” (which I suspect is his repression) pretended to be dying and asked me to soothe his pain with my magical power or something, he asked me to feel his heart, to be near him … all the things he missed in normal moments, only that they were totally disconnected from the sexual dimension. His sexuality was all sadism in practice.
I talked a lot about him because what we lived still hurts. We were very close, symbiotic, and we really loved each other, even if we hurt ourselves and it is better for both of us to stay away (these situations are so absurd and contradictory) … I didn’t say anything about myself because I was with him even though I felt he was gay. But I want to say it because other people can pass through here and they could benefit from my experience as it happened to me.
So, first of all, I could not be sure that he was gay. He used to throw me many clues but he never told me it clearly and openly. Nor could he do it, because the problem between us was just that, he could not open up with me, there was place only to hurt me to vent his pain and to lie (even to himself), tell me stories, sell me his fictitious personality … there was no space neither to listen to me nor to truly express himself. If he is really gay, I don’t think he has accepted it at all, and if he has accepted it he denies it with all his strength.
Second: having a guy probably homosexual but who can have sex with women and has really sex with you from a certain point of view is a good move if you’re an insecure girl, because you know he cannot betray you. And also because (sorry if I use a stereotype but in my case it was so) with a gay guy you can have a friendship that with a straight guy is impossible to have. I remember that I really appreciated his patience, his passion for psychology, his gossip, his eye for aesthetics, the way we could talk for hours about how our male friends were, how they reasoned and so on … then when we wanted to, we also had sex, and I didn’t feel tested by him, because I knew he was thinking more than anything to himself while we were doing it, it was the affection towards me and his need to “unload” that motivated him, not my desirability as a woman … The price I paid for this “comfortable” relationship was the frustration of my real need, which is not only physical but also emotional and psychological. I had much more desire than him, and he began to say that I was nymphomaniac, he went around saying that even after we had separated.
So it was the fault of both of us for me. I knew, deeply, that I wasn’t really in love with him. He missed that light in the eyes that seemed to me to be the most important characteristic of the man I dreamed to have beside me. But when I tried to get away he was chasing me in every way. When I changed the phone number, he wrote to my sister, to my best friends, insistently, to know where I was … He didn’t respect my very simple request to be left alone to get over our story. When he thought I had canceled him he tried to come back with me. Perhaps he didn’t want to lose me because I had been more or less the only one who had seen him, albeit consciously deluding herself, like the straight man he wanted at all costs to be. Losing me meant losing the person who most believed in his artificial personality, the one he spent and still spends his life to sculpt and finish, full of artificial justifications about why he’s not normal, he is not like the other guys, he cannot stay in touch with people or women, because women are stupid and have to be more like men …
There is perhaps a third reason, sweet-bitter, that pushed me to stay with him, apart from the fear of a true love and the fear of be wrong about him, and it’s a mixture of voyeurism and pity. Something morbid, a curiosity almost like a reporter. He seemed to me and still seems, a striking case of how the repression can completely destroy the life of an individual.
Standing near to him I lived a kind of perverse reality show in which I expected at every step that he betrayed himself and that it turned out that he was gay with irrefutable proofs, or better I expected him to confess it clearly. Although perhaps I would have preferred to sadistically catch him on the fact, as in a yellow. I cannot really blame him for his feeling himself cornered and with his back to the wall or for his continuous questioning the sincerity of my love, because there was also a dark element in it, and I knew it. It seemed to me also my legitimate compensation for all the things I endured from him.
With the time I accepted the situation, I understood that it was not me who was wrong, that I cannot change him, that he is like that with everyone and not only with me because he suffers deeply. Sometimes I would like to help him, but I don’t know how to do it and I tend to say that maybe because I was his only girl and he was my most important guy in spite of everything … maybe I’m the last person who can help him. And this is very sorry for me because nobody has ever been so close to me, and for him it’s substantially the same … Now I hope the future leads me to a normal story, with a guy who wants to kiss his girlfriend, to cuddle her, to stay well together with her, and all this keeping calm and living quietly. It seems impossible to me because I’m very cynical about it, partly because of traumas related to my parents. I’m afraid that if I met a good guy I wouldn’t be attracted to him. But okay, I’ll see what happens. I needed to tell how much I felt understood on this forum. Thanks again to the OP and to all the others. Greetings.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-a-girl-in-love-with-a-gay-guy
I’m reluctantly going out from a story with a repressed guy man I loved and love so much still now, despite all the evil he did to me. I only left him for two weeks ago because I realized that he had never really loved me. I state that I’m 26 years old and he is 23.
We met at an internship, we exchanged the numbers and for commitments of both we met two months later to go for a coffee together. Well, that night we talked about this and that, nothing more.
Arrived home I got a text message in which he confessed me his love and he hoped that it was reciprocated. Honestly this thing made me think a lot, because it is unthinkable to love a person so quickly, especially because he had just come out of a story that had lasted two years. In the following days we started to meet, he seemed really a sweet and tender guy and so at the end I tied myself to him and after a week or so we got together, even though initially I was a little hesitant.
The first kiss was sought by him, and so even the first time we made love it was he the one who did the first step, let’s say it all happened fast enough.
After only 3 weeks, he wanted to take me to his parents because he cared very much about this thing, and so I went into his family.
The more time passed the more that sweet and good guy became a distant memory. He was a type who later was discovered to be a great liar, but of the chronic ones; even though he knew he had lied to me he managed to treat me badly and to tell me bad things because I had allowed myself to doubt him. I don’t tell you how many tears I have shed, he often and gladly treated me badly even when I worried about him.
For example, once we were at the beginning of our engagement, he had to take an exam at the university, so in the afternoon, as usual, I called him to know how it went. Immediately after seeing my text messages and my calls he turned off the phone, and I, desperate, not knowing what had happened and imagining that something had not gone well with the exam, I decided to go to his house to see how he was and to lift a little his spirits, in case.
I arrive behind the door and find him ready to go out with his roommate friend to buy something, I saw him quite serene, but seeing me he got angry, he took me aside and told me that he didn’t want to answer because he was nervous because he hadn’t taken the exam and I would never have to allow myself to go to his house without warning. I felt very bad of course, because instead of appreciating that his girlfriend was worried about him, he got angry, and I didn’t understand why he was calm when he was with that friend and became almost rancorous with me! He was always like that with me, if he was nervous about his business he treated me badly for no reason, he told me the worst things, while for his friends he was another person.
He didn’t even want me to approach his phone for a matter of privacy and so over time I discovered he was hiding many things from me: he messaged secretly with other girls.
I have always been very sincere with him and I wanted him to do the same, because if he didn’t do anything wrong he wouldn’t need to hide. At the beginning he was really a chronic liar, he even came to lie about his past. Over time and with various speeches that I did he changed enough.
On a sentimental level instead I found myself with a person completely different from what he was at the beginning. He was not the type who kissed me on my cheek, who hugged me tightly, who cuddled me, these things were not spontaneous for him. Even when he was kissing me I didn’t feel passion and complicity, sometimes I happened to have to interrupt a kiss because it seemed no more than a play consisting in rhythmically move the tongue! I felt that those kisses were detached, and he justified his mistakes and his behavior as “inexperience”.
Even on a sexual level things were not going very well, he was very selfish, and we made love quite rarely because he was always stressed and tired. Only once I allowed myself to say with all the sweetness “I want you” but the ruckus broke loose, he began to shout against me and tell me that I didn’t understand that he was tired and that I used to make love only for “venting”. I don’t tell you the tears! As usual I was the one who had to pay for everything and who felt bad about the discussions, he, on the contrary, was totally indifferent, and rather than clarifying he preferred to go for a good night’s sleep. I thought it was a matter of character. Once after a discussion in which I had finished crying because he had treated me badly, he had understood that he was wrong and in order to show himself really sorry (I saw him out of the corner of the eye) he licked his hand and then wetted his eyes. I was puzzled by that gesture, but I didn’t say anything to prevent him from being uncomfortable.
Returning to the previous speech, to prevent him from reacting badly, I waited for him to make the first step to make love, based on how he felt! The intercourse, however, wasn’t very satisfying, he liked better to be masturbated by me rather than to make love classically. In time, talking about it, however, I made it clear to him that it was more important for me to make love classically because it was much more beautiful and intimate in a couple in love and so he changed his behavior to please me.
I had always noticed that his penis was not hard enough and that came out almost nothing of sperm. Initially talking to him he wanted me to believe it could be a pathology. In time he confessed to me that he used to masturbate 5-6 times a day, and from there I understood why he almost never wanted to make love. This thing made me feel very ill, because I thought that it was I was who was the problem, to be ugly and undesirable, so much so that my boyfriend preferred to do it by himself.
He simply told me that he loved me and that this was his longtime habit. I remember sadly the first night on vacation where we had the chance to sleep in the double bed together. As soon as I approached him looking for cuddles he turned away and with a serious and annoyed tone told me: “turn the other way and sleep!”, I remained silent, I did not understand why he reacted like that, I did as he told me and without making him notice I cried a lot.
I come now to tell an episode that dates back to a period before his “crisis”. One afternoon he had to study with a very esteemed friend, his college mate. We should have met after they had finished studying. That evening for no apparent reason he treated me badly with an unprecedented wickedness, told me that I had ugly dark circles, that my hair was ugly and he also pointed out other physical defects with a face literally “disgusted”. Obviously I was felt badly, and my self-esteem was affected again.
A few weeks later (we are talking about a year ago) it was a period when he was very nervous and he treated me very badly, he came to tell me that we could not be together because he could not love me, and he would never have succeeded, that he didn’t want make fun of me anymore and delude me. He said that in his own way he had loved me, but that always, not only with me then, he couldn’t feel feelings for anyone, even in old stories, he couldn’t even cry (and now I understand why he thought I was pretending when I cried because of him).
He asks me not to abandon him and I, who was anyway very attached to him, understand his discomfort and decide to stay close to him to try to understand where his malaise was coming from. In this period I try to talk a lot and to find the origin of his discomfort. He manages to tell me that he, compared to the other guys, he has never felt much attraction for women, for example if he saw a girl in a miniskirt he felt nothing at all. He comes to hypothesize to be gay, and he seems more and more convinced of it to the point of wanting to stay forever on his own because he would never have accepted the truth.
His dream would have been to go away and live his life away from everyone.
In this period I am his confidant and try to pull out of him the toad he had inside. It also comes out that as a child he discovered sexuality with an uncle 9-10 years older. In this “game” he had to masturbate his uncle, and he did it for a while … he didn’t tell me more. However I try to reassure him and try to minimize everything by saying that anyway they are experiences that can happen when sexuality is not yet developed and doesn’t mean that for this he is gay. I was convinced that maybe he was becoming obsessed by the idea of being gay, and that anyhow he was not.
When he told me this, it was as if he felt a bit of resentment towards this uncle, as if his uncle had taken advantage of him who at the time was a boy, somehow an easy prey. But in reality he loves this uncle (I too know this uncle), he loves him very much and vice versa, this uncle loves him very much. He has always considered him a good person … for him he is his best uncle!
Once become aware of such thing and seeing his discomfort I propose to go together with to a psychologist but in the end he is never ready to go, always postpones until he ends up saying that he doesn’t need it.
In the meantime he, convinced that we cannot go back together, for my own sake, pushes me to go out with other guys and stay only friends with him, and slowly he moves away more and more. At the end I decide to go out with a friend with whom there had been something in the past, even to test his reaction. Starting from this episode he approached me again telling me that he loved me, that he had only had a bad time and that he wanted to care about me. Shortly thereafter, after 3 months of “friendship”, a little naively perhaps, because I was too much in love with him, I believe him and we come back together.
Things with him are not going very well, he continues to be nervous and stressed for no apparent reason, the exams went great, he was finishing all in time, there were only 2 small easy exams to overcome and he was one step away from graduation. Secretly he began to smoke because of anxiety, and in his life he had never smoked! Even with me things were not good, on a sexual level I was not looking for a lot, and every time we made love he lose the erection, and sometimes even blamed me because he said he saw me absent and it was not true at all!
Just two months after our returning together, he falls again into crisis, we are in late July, last year, and he once again come to tell me that he doesn’t love me, and never will, that the fault is not mine but he doesn’t feel feelings for anyone; he leaves me this time for two and a half months, in August, the first month, he sent me messages telling me that he loved me, that he was wrong and that he wanted to see me again, but he never did anything concrete to see me again.
In September and mid-October it disappears completely and afterwards he goes back to show himself sending me a lot of text messages and I, tired and still hurt, I call him and ask him to leave me in peace after all the evil he did to me.
He arrives up to tell me that he has been a month with another girl, and punctually like always, also because he saw me agitated, because it seemed that I was the problem, he starts to totally denies what he had just said perhaps for fear of losing me, but I don’t believe him.
I find him one morning behind the door with a bouquet of flowers and my heart still weak could not say no! He told me that he had only left because he was stressed out by the thesis but that he always loved me, it was nonsense but the heart sometimes doesn’t want to see certain things and I believed him! He told me that during this period he did nothing and told me that he had been with a girl for a month just to know if I was engaged with someone else (the reality is that he had disappeared also with text messages for a month so I’m well aware that the story he told me is just a lie). Honestly I think he could do it because, not feeling anything for anybody, according to his thought, one girl or other doesn’t matter at all, the important thing is to appear heterosexual, especially if it is a dear friend of his the one who introduces him to the girls in question … all easy girls!
Things immediately went wrong, even the first time we did it as soon as we got back together his erection faded and his penis became soft quite immediately and so all the other times, he didn’t have a good (hard) erection. I didn’t feel in him the desire to have sex with me, as I have never felt it in two years of our story. Many times I told him that I had the impression that he mechanically made love, and he punctually got mad at it! Lately he told me that those caresses, those kisses and those cuddles he did to me, which he never had done before, were a play, were only a “recitation” because he hadn’t really changed. I felt very bad, and even more, because I believed he had unlocked himself since at the beginning I had asked him to make me some cuddle and do me some caress every now and then.
I was wrong! He punctually said that it was not true and that he had said it because he was nervous … I think instead that it was just when he was nervous that he was really telling me how things were … with a cold mind he was inclined to deny everything not to let me get away.
One of the last times we made love, immediately after putting the condom, in a few seconds, without giving me even time to undress, his erection became soft, and once again he blamed me saying “Asshole! Hurry up!”; understanding his embarrassment I didn’t even answer, it was clear that it was not my fault! It was he who, in his haste to put on a condom, had given me no time to undress! Usually, knowing his problem, I preferred to wait a while and was not in a hurry. The fact is that I was tired of his humiliations … once, after we did, perhaps because I had kept inside the anger for his gratuitous wickedness, I cried … and he obviously believed I was pretending! I don’t even know how he could have thought such a thing … and oh well!
I arrive to the drop that broke the jar and that made me say “now it’s enough” even if I love him I want a little love for myself! While I was doing oral sex on him he was very excited with a fantasy so much so that he expressed it aloud, in practice he imagined another man who together with him penetrated me. Such a fantasy left me a little disconcerted because I love him I don’t need to think about anything else, I only need him! I would never enjoy seeing him with another girl, rather I die from jealousy! He told me that it didn’t mean that he didn’t love me but that there is a distinction between sex and love.
Then to understand how things really were, I “pretend” to understand his point of view and I tell him that maybe he’s right, that maybe I’m a bit closed because with him I conceived only the classical making love. I tell him that I would like to make this fantasy come true, and that I would have been looking for a guy in the chat! At first he refuses but with a little insistence he accepts (at that moment I would have preferred to die) and he advised me to find a young guy, better if already engaged, who was not inclined to fall in love with someone else … and coming from a different city.
Then he thought of where to do it … he didn’t know if in the car … or in some house! However at the end being a little hesitant he decided to drop it for the moment … maybe later we would have talked about it! Inside me, however, there was a huge disappointment, because I’m convinced that a man who loves would not do a similar rubbish with his woman, but not even for a joke! The fact is that he was angry with me because I didn’t have to play with his imagination and told me that I not having such fantasies I was an amorphous girl.
After two years of great love for him in which if I had been allowed, I would have given my soul for him, if, according to him, thinking only of him when we made love was an “amorphous” thing well, this was not the man I wanted at my side, because as he has often said to me “he never loved me” and certainly he does not know what true love means, I am convinced! And I am even more convinced that he was a repressed gay who for fear of the reality held me bound to him doing me an evil that he couldn’t even imagine.
I’m tired of suffering, I want someone to make me feel loved and that at least cares about me. I still want to believe in true love … I hope it exists!
I only regret having given an immense love to a guy who has never understood it, because he was too devoid of feelings to be able to perceive mine, I was simply for him “the girl with whom he was” no more and no less than many other girls! Which girl in my place would have accepted so much stress if she hadn’t been madly in love? I think certainly none … pity he never understood such things!
This is my story ended on 18/4/2014 … from that day I’m trying a new rebirth, even if we are still at the beginning and for me everything is difficult … I have to suffer long before I can smile again … also because this was for me the first big love of my life, and I really believed it! I apologize if I have been too wordy and thank all those who will want to comment on my story, the opinions are always welcome!
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-a-girl-in-love-for-two-years-with-a-repressed-gay-guy
I’m 31 years old, I was born and raised in Italy but I lived abroad for many years. I have always been “different” from others, grown up between adults and with a keen interest in being with adults. I figured out that I was gay during high school but the acceptance phase was long and hard. I started declaring myself 5-6 years ago with my female best friend and with my male best friend. I told my parents everything last December, but they had already guessed it. I’m proud of how my dad took it, the person I was most afraid of. Being told by my father that now I would have been even more appreciated, made me feel good.
In more than 31 years I only had a “story” with a guy, 5 years ago. The thing was over after two months for the distance and perhaps because he, just out of a relationship, was not ready to start a new one with me. I had been in love with him, I felt destroyed but then, slowly, I reconstructed a group of friends. I met guys / men, I attended people to understand if and how I liked them. But apart from the infatuations, I have never met a person who, in addition to reciprocating certain feelings, was also compatible with me.
Until August of last year, when after two and a half years of peace of mind, a guy writes to me on Planet Romeo. He was a few years younger than me, intriguing, we began to chat, cuddling each other. It has to be noted that, despite I said I was not looking for sex, he continued to write: a true rarity. 4 days later we go on Whatsapp and the same day he tells me that he was married. I still remember the scene: I was in a coffee break, I felt stunned.
I asked him what he was doing in a chat like Planet Romeo and if his wife knew. Of course his wife was totally unaware. He apologized, he thought he had already told me it the first night we had chatted, and tells me that he understands that I don’t want to meet him anymore. But voice inside me told me to meet him. I wanted to understand, only understand. We continue to write to each other nonstop, I from my office (empty for summer holidays), he from his workplace. The next day we decide to see each other spontaneously and I invite him to have a coffee at my house. The moment he enters my house and extends his hand to introduce himself, I feel a lump in my throat and my stomach closes. Beyond the fact that already in the picture I had understood that he was my type, seeing him live was love at first sight.
The strange thing is that I, generally very nervous, after not even 2 minutes, was calm and happy with him on the balcony drinking coffee as if we were friends of a lifetime. I felt so comfortable, as if we had always known each other.
Because of the heat, we move into the living room, in the cool, and we keep talking. He tells me about him, born and raised abroad, in this country for a couple of years and married for just over two years with a girl from here known in his country years before. He tells me that he has problems with his wife (too little sex in his opinion) and that he has many doubts, that he doesn’t feel integrated, that his linguistic knowledge is not enough to work in his field, blablabla. He asks me about me, I tell my story. We never stop talking a second … we have so many things to say … everything is so natural … and an hour later he tries to kiss me, I reject him and say that I have to reflect on what I’m doing. He understands and does not insist.
He tells me that at the time of the university he had thoughts for the guys, but he never tried (perhaps for fear, or I don’t know what for) and that these thoughts never ceased, that he masturbates while watching gay porn and feels guilty … and tells me that, when he got married, he promised to abandon and repress this side of his life because of which he feels guilty. A few months before meeting me, however, he cannot take it anymore and decides to meet a man with whom to have sex. He says that before he met me he had met three men in all and he had sex with them, cheating on his wife. He says that sex with men is exciting but at the same time it disgusts him, and he reiterates how the feelings of guilt are destroying him … he loves his wife, he wouldn’t want to betray her … but he needs guys, although he continues to repeat that sex with men doesn’t convince him. And I tell him that, perhaps, this is due to his non-acceptance. Strange situation, I think … then he says he is 80% happy and tells many other things. We say goodbye, I accompany him to the door and he goes home.
No more than 10 minutes after, climbed on the train, he writes to me: “where have you been for all my life? I have eternally been looking for someone like you.” In the following days we continue to write so … uninterruptedly … in the evening we say goodnight and good morning in the morning. Crazy things. He writes to me that he would like to see me again … and, please, don’t ask me why, I accept.
4 days later we meet again at my house, we talk, drink coffee, we kiss and start cuddling (not sex). We also spend 4-5 hours, after my work, talking, cooking together, having dinner, etc. I repeat, crazy things. When the train is about move, from the train itself he writes to me that I am his ideal man, he wonders how I can be single and above all he tells me that 4-5 years before he would have had no doubts about me, but that at that time he was 100% hetero and shy.
And he asks me if, in a future life, he can have a chance to be together with me. I’m clearly upset … you can imagine the emotions of hear such things from the person you spontaneously like better … Even if then he tells me that, unfortunately, in this constellation someone would have suffered (his wife). The story goes on … or better starts … we meet every time we can, I go to work, he changes the shifts to be with me at my house … we go together to the cinema … go walking in the evening … his wife, unaware of everything, works until late. On Saturdays, very often, he has to work … so we get to see each other 4-5 times a week and we often spend Saturday nights together, either by him at work or at my house … After work we walk together towards the station … and then it happens that one evening he takes me by hand and in the station he kisses me. The first time I kiss a man in public. And he, married, keeps on going hand in hand with me with the risk of being seen by someone.
My family has always made me feel loved, but the sensations I start feeling are special … this feeling light … desired, etc. … Two weeks later we end up in bed … and there we understand that the harmony is total. I sincerely hoped that he would turn out to be a landslide in bed. At least I would have had a reason to close … to forget him … All the story really scared me. We go on … in September I have two weeks of vacation … he insists to take me to the airport … and a week later he comes to pick me up and spends his Saturday with me. Obviously he had told his wife a lot of fake stories. He feels uncomfortable because he had lied and also because he is fine with me.
That Saturday he tells me that in the previous week, while I was at a sea site, he thought that maybe he can live without me … but anyway he was always with me. Even during the second week of vacation, while I was at my house, we keep on hearing and calling each other. And then he writes to me that he misses me, etc. … I come back home … the story goes on. He asks me if I’m in love, I do not answer him. But he understands. He says it’s not right for me, that I deserve a man who is 100% available, not one with problems like him. But we are in touch every day … messages … he often comes for lunch in the neighborhood where I work … even just to spend an hour with me … and to shake my hand under the table, at the restaurant.
Speaking of his wife, he says that he loves her but that sex with her is not enough … that they do it once a week if all goes well. He says he has talked to her and that she only needs no more that. He often cries when we see each other. When we make love he’s in seventh heaven … we talk, we laugh … there’s total involvement. He says that with me it’s something else, not just for the performance but for the harmony, for what you feel … trust … the bond. Anyway … then he cries … he feels guilty … and tells me that he loves her … etc. .. But then we do it another time. When he leaves my house, I never understand how he feels.
Then he goes on vacation, at the end of October, with her. For three weeks we stay in touch very little because there is no field. When he comes back he closes the story with me. He says he cannot take it anymore, he says it’s not right for me nor for her. He says that he got married and made her a promise … he tells me that he loves her … that sex with her is not bad … that having sex with me doesn’t convince him … And here, for the first time I burst: I explain to him that when you are really happy there is no reason to look for sex elsewhere and especially not with the opposite sex. I tell him that maybe he didn’t realize it … but what binds us is not a friendship …
I didn’t tell him it’s love … I told him that in my opinion he feels a great affection for his wife … but that this is different from love, and that, always in my opinion, he suffers from internalized homophobia. He asks me what the solution would be and I reply that, the best thing would be to take a break with her, to stay alone (even without seeing me) and understand what he really wants. He tells me it’s not true … he tells me that he started going with men because he felt not integrated, without a work and depressed. And I tell him that if all men betrayed their wife with other men for the above reasons, we would no longer have happy marriages. The usual things … I explained that he must look for the reasons, talk to a psychologist, etc. I explained to him how it was for me … and that in any case, the fact of feeling the need to stay / go with men, combined with homo-affectivity, has its roots in his own sexuality.
I was patient … a lot, but hearing from him that sex with his wife was not bad … and then the opposite … well, it made me go out of my mind, even if in that moment I didn’t realize clearly why. I spent a horrible week. Empty, discouraged, sad, alone. The following Saturday I wanted to see him again to talk to him and in the end we made “peace” if we can say so. And we started seeing each other again and again, etc. For the first time, it seemed to me that he understood that my goal was not that he left his wife … but that he was calm, happy, fulfilled. Everything went on normally … we saw each other when we could, I went to get him at work. As for the afternoons, his wife had changed jobs and now worked with office hours, he could no longer lie and so, to see him, I choose the free day of the week coinciding with his. He came to me at home, he reached me in bed, he woke me, we spent time together … he helped me with the work at home … as a couple that we were really not. I was the lover in love with a man of another person.
Then, at the end of November, he gets his much-hoped job … and the same evening, celebrating with me (and not with his wife), he tells me that he loves me … in his own way … but he loves me. I was happy, I was beginning to hope to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Then I spent the Christmas holidays with my parents … we stayed in touch normally … I didn’t tell him that I had done my coming out so as not to burden him with further worries and when I got back we met … and there, crying, I he tells me that he has decided to close … that he wants to save his marriage … that he made a promise to his wife … that he is fine with me, but neither sex nor life with a man convince him … etc. … a bitter blow. We cried for two hours .. and he told me that he doesn’t want to lose me … that he loves me, that I’m important etc. He didn’t leave me for a minute. He said he had not yet made a choice … but that he could not take it anymore. He even told me that he had to be careful not to mention me too much … otherwise his wife would have asked questions. He tells me he cannot give me what I want from him, but that I’m very important in his life and he doesn’t want to lose me … he wants to keep hearing me.
But in the meantime he attended chats on the net … and I saw him online many times… I thought: he wants to save his marriage … but he’s always chatting with other men and maybe he also meets them! Well, do you know what? We continued with good morning, goodnight … uninterrupted messages … we conducted a relationship without sex, because I was afraid of the HIV, … just like before.
He assured me that he saw only a friend in me … then, he was constantly looking for me and wanted to see me regularly … he came regularly to my house for dinner … when his wife was out to dinner with her friends … I told him more than once that I was sorry … but even if he didn’t admit it, we were not friends … because two friends don’t hug each other … don’t give each other kisses on the neck … and above all they don’t have an erection with every hug. When I complained it he said I was exaggerating … My friends said he was an egoist and I had to close. But I, in order not to lose him, accepted everything.
At a certain point he tells me that his wife would like to meet me … and that everything would be easier for him if she knew me … because he wanted to integrate me in his life … And I tell him that I would never do such a thing, that seamed to me disrespectful and disgusting. And what was the reason? If she had known me, he would not have to answer any more questions … He asked me it, even though I had never asked too many questions about his wife and had never spoken badly about her, not even once.
Nevertheless, I asked myself what kind of wife doesn’t want to have sex with her husband at that age and above all I asked myself how she didn’t notice her husband’s moods. Perhaps it was because I realize quickly if something / someone doesn’t go but I had the impression that his was a marriage already finished. I carried on the thing feeling uncomfortable, not sleeping at night, not being able to concentrate on the studies … then I tried to discuss it with him … and he cried a lot, etc. … until in the end of March we went to walk in the mountains and once arrived at the top I extracted the thermos of coffee and a pack of biscuits … and he told me: “Why are you doing all this? Why do you bring all the things that I like?” I told him that I do it for all the people I love (which is absolutely true). And he said: “But do you know that ours is only a friendship?” … and I didn’t say anything. I just thought: “You tell me it all the time … but only because it makes you feel good”.
Then I proposed to go for dinner after the walk and he told me: “And how would you see this dinner? As a romantic meeting or as a dinner with friends?” And there I really lost patience … we walked for more than an hour in silence, then we sat on a bench … always in silence. And after ten minutes he says to me: “Don’t you have anything to say?” And I let myself explode: I told him that his behavior was unjust, that he didn’t make any choice in order not to have to take a position but in fact he was with her (heterosexuality of the facade) and nevertheless continued to get all the attentions on my part (homosexuality).
I reiterated the fact that it was not right, either for me or for her … and that I could not take it anymore. My life was not peaceful. The chat topic too came out. I told him that I knew he was always online, etc. … and he swore to me that he had not attended other men after me but that, as I knew, he could not stand without that part. And I screamed in face of him that it would have been right to let his wife go because she had every right to live with a man who really loved her. My friends said I couldn’t really know if he really loved her. And I repeated that when there is love, certain things are not to be done. And that if he were in love with his wife, he wouldn’t be so attached to me as a lover. Also because I consider myself able to recognize the difference between love and well-being.
I patiently explained to him that I thought it was right not to see /hear each other anymore. I advised him to consult a psychologist (we had been talking about it for months) and to solve his problems. And then I added that, if his problems were resolved in my direction, my door would be always open to him, but as a partner, not as a friend. Well … I have not seen him since the beginning of April. The same evening he wrote me a myriad of messages … he left me vocal messages asking me to think again about it … crying … that it was not right to close a friendship … telling me that I was not behaving well.
He proposed to me to let me heard even less, in order not to stress me too much, etc. … I didn’t listen to him, I held on. We have not seen each other since. He looks for me regularly … once a week he writes … he misses me, he concludes the messages with a big hug … every excuse is good to write. I sometimes answer politely but in a detached way.
Clearly his wife is still unaware of everything … but so … why tell her strange things… he is straight!! His perpetual searching for me makes me sick … but it gives me the confirmation that he doesn’t accept my choice and that he cannot be without me. In a message he wrote to me that he had represses himself so as not to write to me. On Monday I received a message from him: “I went by the psychologist and told him about you. I cried a lot. I miss you a lot. I hope your phrase in your Whatsapp profile doesn’t refer to me, otherwise I don’t understand why you don’t make yourself heard. I hope you’re better and that I can go to the concert with you in June.”
In March he had bought tickets for a concert to go there together in June. I replied to him with a long message … reiterating the fact that I hope the psychologist can help him find himself and live lightly … explaining that I feel not at ease, that I miss him more than ever but staying close is not a viable solution. As for the concert, I told him that I cannot give him what he needs … as he cannot give it to me. And that he can go there with other friends or with his wife. His answer was “dumb!”. The next day I wrote to him, just to know if he had slept. I did it because I needed it. I know what it means to go to the psychologist the first time and I felt compelled to write to him. He replied that he is well, that he had dreamed so much and that he feels alone … he misses me, but he cannot expect anything more from me. And still a hug …
Sorry if I was verbose … this is my story … at the moment, despite five months have passed since January, I feel really uncomfortable. I’m in love more than ever and I think he realized that maybe I’m more important than what he wanted to believe. But as my best friend says: “My dear, the facts, only the facts matter. And he’s there with her, not here with you!” My opinion is that he is gay, repressed, with a strong homophobia and that he still has to make his acceptance path. I believe that in life we need balls and courage to follow our heart and I think he is not ready yet. I don’t know how to behave anymore. I don’t know how to stop this story and go further. The idea of seeing other men makes me vomit. And the fact that I cannot have the love of my life (because I know that we are exactly this one for the other), it tears me apart.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-falling-in-love-with-a-married-guy-a-very-complicated-situation