I write to you because I have exhausted the list of possible recipients.
It’s more a way to let off steam than anything else, if you are there and if the forum still works, ok, otherwise it will be like having put a message in a bottle that has been lost in the ocean, but anyway I would have lost just a little time writing.
I’m 36, friends … just someone, real friends … I don’t even know. There is a guy who interests me, he is not my boyfriend, I’m not in love with him, I don’t know if I would do anything for him, maybe not, but somehow I like him. Incidentally, I never understood those of “all or nothing”, lost lovers and things like that, for me the fundamental person is always and only one: myself.
I never had a real boyfriend, that is I never lived a couple life, I did a little sex, and just a little, but then no crazy enthusiasm. I’d like to be with a guy but first of all in order to fight a battle together, to collaborate in everyday life, even to have sex, but if we reduce everything to that, well, then this guy or that one it’s all the same, more or less. I was talking about the guy who interests me, … what can I say?
He fascinates me but I realize that a real dialogue is not possible, he’s always angry with the world, anxious, resentful (not with me, or at least with me only very rarely). Sometimes he calls me and I like it but I don’t understand why he calls me. What do you want from me? Sex? Project, please note that he’s a handsome guy and on the contrary I’m not handsome at all.
For him, it wouldn’t take too much commitment to find a bit of sex and sometimes it happens, when he has no one there is me always or at least sometimes available, certainly it’s not a problem for me, by now he doesn’t even make me more proposals, he tells me that I always say no (it’s what I usually do), but if he’s the first one to tell me in the face that he doesn’t want to feel bound, why does he look for me?
But then of the fact that he has other guys honestly I don’t care at all, but I wish he had more respect for me, for example I can’t stand when he tells me that the next day he will come to see me and then he doesn’t come, or when we have to meet but then he skips our meeting because obviously he has more interesting proposals. But all this, ok, it’s his business, I’m not his boyfriend, but a bit of respect, I don’t say loyalty, but he really should have at least a minimal respect. He tells me to call him and then he puts the answering machine and he never answers.
One day he asks me to drive him to another city, almost 200 km away, he could go by train, but he suggests that we go together, I insist on going with my car, he finally accepts. We leave early in the morning, obviously he doesn’t even tell me what it’s going to do. We talk a bit in the car, but he seems unnerved. We arrive at the destination, he gives me an appointment in the center for two in the afternoon, then he goes down to take the subway.
Obviously, at two o’clock he doesn’t arrive and not even at three o’clock, his phone is disconnected, he doesn’t answer until 9.00 pm, then he sends me a text message and tells me he had nerves and took the train to came back home. He must have left at least three hours earlier, but obviously he hasn’t warned me. I went back alone and I can say that the trip made me reflect!
I must regain my autonomy. At 36, I must understand that certain things make no sense. Note, Project, that I speak of a simple friendship, but even a simple friendship should be something minimally serious, otherwise one lives much better alone! Once at home I called him back and he told me he didn’t have time because he had a job to finish, and I also regretted calling him back.
Of course, solitude is a value! I know it very well, and then when he calls me we end up with clarifications and recriminations, he tells me that he can’t feel comfortable because of me, because I’m anxious and neurotic and I transmit my anxiety to him. I know that he has so many problems and also very serious ones, but if he tells me he was wrong to tell me about it, why does he call me first? But if he talks to me about something I have to tell him what I think about and not what he wants to hear and from there the piqued answers or better the total absence of answers.
We have two very different ways of looking at life, he tells me that I was born old and that I will be alone all my life, but then what will he do? He is now 31, and when you have had many guys it is like not having had one, but he thinks I will be the only one who will remain alone, he accuses me of reasoning like his parents, of avoiding risks even at the cost of living less intensely, he accuses me of always running away, of not deciding, of being ambiguous, of keeping one foot in two shoes. Why can’t I have a minimally serious dialogue with this guy without ending up in endless squabbles?
He is as he is, now I can only adapt, and then why does he get angry with me? Because probably when he talks about nonsense or sex all guys follow him, but when he enters the melancholic tone (which often happens to him) then no one listens to him or sometimes people give him reason just to make him feel happy.
I wonder, Project, what has all this to do with the fact of being gay? Certainly anyway there is some link, because I would clearly not be following a girl like I follow him, that is, putting apart also my dignity! But why do two gays end up having these problems? And then starting from things of life in general, which have nothing to do with sex or emotional life. But maybe all these things are somehow linked!
Project, I’m tired, very tired, I can’t take to repeat the same speeches over and over again, maybe I’m just old inside and I’m learning not to hope for anything and to let things go as they must go. I know it would be much more hygienic and healthy to end this relationship, if it is a relationship, but it is not easy even to end it. What problems! Ten years ago I used to think it was easier! And people are always talking about gay marriage! The real problem is being able to get along with a guy even at minimal levels.
Hi Project and if you are there, make you heard.
If you like, you can participate in the discussion of this post, open on the Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-keeping-going-on-at-a-minimum-level-with-a-gay-guy
I think I’m more or less your age, or maybe I’m a bit older than you, I read some of your very melancholic post. You did a lot, you could have done something wrong, but only those who do nothing make no mistakes. I have never had online sites, such things are not things for me, but somehow I have also spent some very melancholic periods and I have thought several times I had done everything wrong, as you say, that I “have done damage” but then I have realized that it was not like that.
I would like to tell you a story of a relationship, as you call it, intergenerational and I tell you why. Looking for things that talk about intergenerational relationships I came across the forum, I discovered your manual Being Gay and I read the chapter dealing with these things and I was very impressed. However there is an aspect that is practically lacking at all and is that of the evolution of these relationships over time, you speak of the inevitable anticipated widowhood, and you’re right, however, you forget the fact that before you get to that point there are years to live, there is not only the phase of falling in love and that of widowhood but there is a phase of progressive maturation of the relationship and it is precisely on this that I would like to draw your attention, perhaps to exchange with you some ideas and to induce you to expand the discussion on “Being Gay”. This is not a reproach but you, Project, tend to see things with the eye of the younger partner, but a manual dealing with being gay can make sense even for an elder.
I start from my personal experience, which follows quite well the progresses of these relationships as you have outlined them. Between me and Leo (this is not his true name, but he would have liked to be called so) there is a huge age difference, 38 years. We met when he still had to get out of the school, I was an old man even then, and I was counting down on when I would retire, I had my friends, obviously I had never had sexual relations with anyone and I had practically archived the problem. My peers did not like me very much, the guys between the ages of 20 and 30 fascinated me but I strongly perceived the generational gap, I practically lived only for my job. I had some friends, work colleagues, actually just a couple, I esteemed them a lot, but they didn’t know anything about me, they had children and grandchildren and sure not enough time to spend for me.
My story with Leo started in an absolutely unexpected way, I was in the car and I stopped at a traffic light when I heard a bang. Leo had crashed with his bicycle into my car, he had also made a little damage on my car but with the blow he had fallen to the ground. I went down and pulled him up from the ground and sat him in the car. He told me that he would pay me all the damage, but I told him: “Meanwhile let’s go to the hospital, let’s see if there’s something broken” He admitted that the fault had been his, but my damage was really minimal. I loaded the bike in the car and went to the hospital, he asked me not to say that it was a car accident but only that he had fallen from the bicycle, when he arrived at the hospital he thanked me, asked me the phone number and gave me his and told me he would call me for the damage. Then he entered the emergency room. I waited for him outside.
He came out after almost 5 hours, I asked him if he had traumas or something broken and he said that there X-rays showed nothing. I told him that I would have liked to take him home, he started talking about the damage and I told him it was a minimal thing and that an extra scratch on my car (an old car) wouldn’t change anything. In the car he asked me if I knew someone who could fix his bicycle and I told him I’d have found someone able to fix the bicycle and I would have brought it back to him. He didn’t know whether to accept, then he told me: “Ok! Thank you.”
Three days later I bought a new bicycle, because it was impossible to fix the old one and I brought it to him. When he saw the new bicycle he immediately told me he couldn’t pay it and I told him that he did not have to pay anything, I thought he would be happy and instead he told me. “No, I cannot pay for it and I don’t want a gift like that.” I felt uncomfortable and didn’t know what to say. I just replied: “Ok, sorry, I didn’t really want to offend.” I reloaded the bike in the car and left. I thought it was all over. After almost a month he calls me, he asks me how much I had paid the bike, I tell him how much, he replies: “Ok, if you like, take it to the pyramid when you can” I took the bike to the pyramid and he gave me the money and told me: “You made me work for a month, but maybe it was worth it.” After the story of the bike we started to hear from each other often.
Then the sexual phase began very gradually, which lasted a little over three years, in practice, I feared that sex could destabilize our relationship, on the contrary I learned from him how much it can be important when it is something really desired by both partners. Then the thing went to fade, it was not completely lost and here began my scruples and the idea that Leo was wasting time because of me. During the university period he lived his stories, he spoke very little to me about such things but none of those stories ended up supplanting our story.
He was in crisis with his family, he spent critical moments with his studies and he has been very close to the idea of abandoning everything, he lost a lot of time, especially at the beginning, then he started to lengthen his pace, he concluded very well his studies and now works in a field that keeps him in tension, in short, he works and earns money but the work is certainly not his realization. He doesn’t have a partner, he has many friends and occasionally, when he can, he goes to visit them in various parts of Italy. Between us we are in a phase that I would call familiar, the relationship between us has nothing to do with a classic gay couple relationship, we are like father and son and it is really a beautiful thing.
Among us sex is a possibility left theoretically open, which in some rare cases is realized, but increasingly rarely and is in practice only a way that he uses to make me understand that he doesn’t feel repulsed by me, but now certainly sex is no longer what sustains our relationship. We often talk on the phone, we also tell each other the deepest melancholies, when he sends me text messages, sometimes (not always) he concludes with “I love you!” And it is not just an expression of courtesy. Now Leo is 32 and I’m really an old man, I turned 70 recently, Leo is quiet, he calls me, he comes to see me, he doesn’t have a stable boyfriend but I see him serene. I can’t deny that I still have a thousand scruples because I think that perhaps I have moved him away from a couple life with a peer and I could even have ruined his life, not by my choice but because I offered him an easy affective reference.
He has never seen things this way, what he tells me about it is more or less this: “I didn’t feel bound by you, I tried to build other stories and a couple of times even with guys I was in love with, but then it did not work with them, while so many years have passed with you and nothing has ever collapsed. You didn’t stop me, you haven’t conditioned me!” In essence, now, Leo considers me a father, when we go around together people always take him for my son. I can say that I like this phase of our relationship very much. It is suitable for my age, it is not a renunciation, it is not at all, I feel in the right dimension. I see him often but not every day, because we don’t live together and also because he must have its freedom, because he could find tomorrow the boyfriend he hasn’t found up until now (and in a sense I hope it happens),
but I feel him close to me all the same, we no longer ask each other questions, everything is spontaneous, there is no longer the risk of making mistakes.
Of course we are no longer a couple for a long time but we love each other. Leo, who is always very serious and almost professional with others, is affectionate, tender, I would say also happy when he is with me, and he seems to me quite serene and I think he feels completely at ease. Seeing Leo serene is a dream that has come true, maybe I would like better to see him happy with a guy who loves him. I think that now I can calmly leave this world too, because I see happy the only guy I really loved and who loved me. I believe that an intergenerational relationship that arrives at this stage gives the best of itself. There will also be widowhood, of course I hope as late as possible, but I somehow realized my dream of being father and Leo found a dad who loves him unconditionally! In practice we have built a family. I am grateful to Leo because he gave a radical change to my life and led me to be a happy man.
Since he was a guy, Leo has sought love and this has not only happened with me. Often people have tried to ask him or rather to impose him some conditions, to create obligations beforehand, to bring Leo back to the more or less classic rules of the couple and it all ended before starting because you cannot take him on a leash, he was born free, he cannot depend on anyone, to love you he needs to feel free. Now I feel a bit like an old dad and I start trusting him more than me, if I have to make a serious decision I consult with him, and he, instead of immediately giving me an answer, makes me speak to understand what I would do, and then, in practice, he always tells me that I’m right. Only on one thing he is a despot, on my health, I spontaneously tend to stay away from the doctors and take a somewhat fatalistic attitude, that’s why he books my visits and takes me to the doctors. I know that these are the attentions usually reserved to an old man, but to an old beloved man. I’ve never fixed the scratch that Leo made with his bicycle on the trunk of my car, when I see that scratch I smile and I feel like a happy old dad.
If you want, you can participate in the discussion of this post open on the Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-evolution-of-an-intergenerational-gay-couple
Hello Project, I just read your article about gay guys who have a sexual friendship with guys with latent homosexuality who will never admit that they are gay. I found what you wrote quite similar to what I experienced, in the sense that I have this friend, even engaged (with a girl), I meet each summer on vacation, and it is thanks to him that I came out of my latency, even if I’ve been trying to find a definition of my sexuality for three years and I cannot find one that fits me, I called myself bisex, but only because I happened to have feelings towards girls, despite my masturbations are in a gay key and just a little hetero. That is, during masturbation I tend to spontaneously have hetero fantasies, but I need to conclude in a gay key.
However I said that I found myself in the article because it is three summers that I end up sleeping with this friend of mine, in crescendo, it started with mutual masturbation and every summer we add something more, but the kisses are forbidden, and cuddling etc. Every time after having behaved the usual way he starts to denigrate me and begins to say phrases like, “it is getting too pleasant”, “it take me a lot of time to come”, “I came too little, with my girlfriend it is more pleasant, you’re dangerous, we don’t have to do such things anymore” . . . but in the meantime we do it every time, he says he is straight, but by texting he asks me if I’m active or passive, he probes the ground, he asks me to come and visit him in his university residence where he lives alone. And every time we do it, then, he pretends nothing, tries to make me understand that he is just a friend, showing off with his girlfriend, not calculating me at all if I look at him, as if nothing had happened between us, because for him it’s just a thing without meaning. Because he cannot afford to be gay.
This September I chose not to call him, and he complained that I never call him. I told him that I needed to think, and he was strangely understanding and told me: okay, when you want, call me. After two months I decided to contact him again but because I love him and I would really like to be his friend, now I no longer expect him to wake up and stay with me, because now I have lost hope.
Also this time the same problem, if I try to be a friend, he starts talking about sex and asks me questions to probe the ground, even flirting. Every time we meet, he shows himself half naked, and I see him bare-chested and cannot resist, I don’t understand anything anymore and I always fall back on it.
It’s a friendship that has lasted for more than 10 years, and I’d be wrong to have to cut it off and not hear him anymore. And I no longer know what to do, because I don’t like anymore this relationship, where there are no cuddles but only denigration; I prefer a normal friendship at this point. What do you advise me to do?
A hug. Richard
Hi Richard. The first question that arises is whether we are really facing a guy with latent homosexuality, what is possible, or a guy who is really aware of his homosexuality or at least bisexuality, perhaps with a strong hetero prevalence. The discriminating element (of which only the person concerned is aware) are the masturbation fantasies: if that guy was really a latent homosexual, his masturbation would be exclusively hetero, if instead there were “also”, perhaps episodically, gay fantasies, then the category of latent homosexual should be totally put aside, because, in practice, the latency of homosexuality means that the same subject is not aware of it; and in essence in all cases the consciousness of one’s sexual orientation is obtained precisely from masturbation and, paradoxically, not from the couple sexuality.
I add a corollary to the basic theorem: if the sex he did with you has not become the object of his masturbation fantasies then there is in practice the certainty that he is a latent homosexual but, I have to stress it, latent homosexuality is a rare thing. In the other hypothesis, if the memory of what he lived with you is instead the object of his masturbation fantasies, perhaps episodically, then you can think that you are facing a guy who is at least partially bisexual and who is in strong condition of sexual repression. If this guy is really a latent homosexual, well, either he wakes up by himself (something unlikely and in any case not predictable or controllable) or there is little to do, the situation will remain that of a friendship, perhaps episodically sexualized.
If instead a homosexual component really exists, well, then it would make sense, more for his own sake than for yours, to arrive at a clear discourse, because marriage for a bisexual means having to give up the other half of the sky, what isn’t certainly a simple thing, unless it is an almost straight bisexuality; if then his gay component was important (and the fact of having a girl, in conditions of social obligation is really not significant), i.e. if he was bisexual with a strong gay component or even a gay that has adapted to have a relationship with a girl (what is not so infrequent), then the marriage would be really to be avoided, because it would be like being shut up in a cage with the prospect of remaining there for a lifetime.
Then there is a third hypothesis, not to be neglected at all, that is that of the hetero-curious (and there are many), it is about men or guys, usually frustrated in their straight sexuality, who seek a gay contact exclusively on the sexual level, excluding any emotional implication, because their affectivity is fully dedicated to women. The hetero-curious are the biggest users of so-called gay pornography. The hypothesis that this guy is just a hetero-curious (who will always consider himself heterosexual and will consider his own gay sexual adventures only as adventures) finds support in the fact that, in your relationship, on his part, it is systematically underlined that his true sexuality is straight, and in from the fact, anything but marginal, that he asked you if you are active or passive, a question that is typical of the hetero-curious (of which are full of erotic chats) and that a true gay would not ask because gay sexuality is not an imitation of the straight one.
I summarize here for you a story I have seen closely and that best configures the relationship between a gay and a latent homosexual. We’ll call “G” the gay and “L” the latent gay.
L knows that G is gay. G has had several girls, and is known to be able to do a lot with women, girls themselves who have been with him say it, but he is not engaged and has never had a stable girlfriend. All his girls come from the same group as G. G and L go to the mountain sites together with the girls of the group. G and L are usually in the same room together. L is very uninhibited, when he is in the room with G he wears only the briefs, physical contact with G is frequent, tests of strength, fighting, etc., but also cuddles in the same bed. Over the days G becomes more enterprising and L lets him do and gets to get masturbated by G (but L doesn’t masturbate G).
G thinks that L is gay and after many uncertainties comes to the idea of making him explicitly understand it. G speaks clearly and the whole story ends, L leaves before the end of the holidays and disappears at all. For him, being masturbated by his friend was just an uninhibited game because on a conscious level his sexuality was radically hetero and it was precisely this that allowed him to behave so freely with his friend without particular problems. Therefore, maximum caution and above all, keep your feet on the ground! Be cautious with flights of fantasy!
So let’s sum up. Maybe my answer may seem strange to you, but I would stay away from him, because if he’s just a repressed, if he’s a repressed gay, then ok, it makes sense, but if he’s a repressed bisexual who wants to stay straight, well, even taking away the repression there is not much to be satisfied, because a bisexual will never build a strong and above all exclusive relationship with you.
The hypothesis that he is a repressed gay is the only one that could give you an adequate motivation to go on, but in that case he should also have the courage to overcome the things that repress him, perhaps not in public, but at least in private, and should begin to understand that going on with girls means enter a road that leads straight to marriage, which for a gay is the worst trap. If you stay away and he really cares about you, he will not let you go, but I wouldn’t follow him, because to build something as a couple you have to want it in two! A hug.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-is-he-a-latent-gay
It often happens that a gay guy creates a strong emotional relationship, sometimes with sexual implications, with guys who present themselves as straight, but don’t have the typical behavior of heterosexuals, i.e. with guys who demonstrate a certain sexual disposition towards gays; I refer to the hetero-curious guys, bisexuals, latent gays and repressed gays.
The order of these four categories is not accidental: the hetero-curious guys, who are very numerous, are properly hetero, but because of strong frustrations in their straight sexuality, they go in search of exclusively sexual adventures in the gay field; the bisexuals, much less numerous than gays, have a true gay sexuality and a true gay affectivity, well integrated, but also present a true hetero sexuality and a true hetero affectivity, bisexuality can present the two components, hetero and gay, in all the possible proportions; latent gays, who are very less numerous even than bisexuals, consider themselves exclusively hetero and behave in all respects as 100% hetero guys, even in masturbation, which is always hetero oriented, their homosexual tendencies are manifested in behaviors of considerable disinhibition with other guys, and also with other gay guys, the freedom of behavior reaches the point that a latent gay, considering himself 100% hetero, doesn’t feel any discomfort in getting involved in openly sexual games with gay friends, up to be masturbated by them, and this happens because these behaviors are not seen by latent gays as gay behavior but as sexual camaraderie; the gays repressed are instead fully gay on a conscious level, with a masturbation exclusively in gay key, who have adapted to live also relationships with girls, including sex, because pressed by families and the social environment, these guys are essentially forced to play the part of the hetero.
When for a guy sexuality is split from affectivity or when sexual orientation is not univocal, signs of discomfort may appear. We must bear in mind that the union of affectivity and sexuality in a relationship in which there is emotional and sexual reciprocity between two guys leads to psycho-sexual well-being and satisfaction in sexuality. When there is no real reciprocity in a couple relationship, there is the typical sense of frustration that gay guys who fall in love with straight guys know very well. In that case the discomfort comes from an objective “couple impossibility “. When the complementarity of affectivity and sexuality is lacking in one of the two partners, the discomfort is not originally interpersonal but is created in the first instance inside the subject, a clearly unresolved subject.
There are guys who, because of the heavy influences suffered through education, which has conveyed to them profound sexual taboos, despite experiencing homosexual drives, continue to live a straight sexual life. If for these guys, homosexuality remains under the limit of conscious thought, in these cases we speak of “latent homosexuality”.
Let us dwell now in particular on guys with latent homosexuality; they generally have characteristic traits:
1) They have a frenzied hetero sexual life, they have many girls and they change them often, and this increases the fame of these guys as heterosexuals, but they have never had a steady girl for long periods (years), what is typical of the heterosexuals. In other words, they live a frenetic sexuality with the girls but without constructing truly meaningful emotional relationships. Their affectivity is addressed elsewhere. Heterosexual sexuality experienced by guys with latent homosexuality is often unsatisfactory due to erectile impotence or difficulty in achieving orgasm. It should be emphasized that guys with latent homosexuality masturbate thinking about girls, which confirms them in their presumption of heterosexuality. These guys don’t have usually, not even partially, gay masturbation fantasies, their homosexuality is totally latent. That is, it is not lived on a conscious level.
2) They have an emotional life focused on a very small number of friends, all or almost male, and often have only one long-standing friend who is their real point of reference on an emotional level. This decisive friendship has such a weight that the same sexual choices of the guy with latent homosexuality, despite being in a hetero direction, are closely linked to the dominant friendship in the sense that the guy tends to choose the girl in the group frequented by the best friend, in this way on the occasions in which he meets the girl in public he doesn’t lose contact with his friend anyway. It should be emphasized that guys who are latent homosexuals often choose girls who are very friendly to their special friend. These guys sometimes fall in love with the girlfriends or the ex-girlfriends of their special friend.
3) The friendship between a guy with latent homosexuality and his special “hetero” friend often goes far beyond the boundaries of a common friendship between two straight guys. It is an emotional or even a loving friendship whose limits are dictated essentially by the hetero guy and are easily accepted by the guy with latent homosexuality. If the limits are narrow, the relationship, even seen from the outside, has no sexual meaning, that is, homosexuality remains totally latent.
4) A friendship between a guy with latent homosexuality and his special “gay” friend instead presents a completely different dynamic and this is what I intend to deal with later.
Let’s consider now two typical non-infrequent situations.
Two friends (whose friendship dated 30 years ago) both had heterosexual intercourses, both had been considered heterosexual for years and had always lived forms of emotional complicity only in a heterosexual key. Let’s say that one of them, let’s call him Mark, arrives at the awareness of his homosexuality through the most natural way, that is, falling in love with his friend, let’s call him Andrew, who continues to show only a straight sexuality (latent homosexuality). In this case, the old relationship of friendship, on the side of the gay guy, acquires a new value and is experienced as a relationship of love and all the moments of intimacy that can occur between two straight friends, like the nudity in the showers of the gym, or sleeping in the same bed, will have for Mark a sexual value that will not have for Andrew. The dimension of intimacy can still increase at least within certain limits because Andrew’s emotional attachment to Mark will lead Andrew to accept Mark’s particularly free behavior without too many difficulties, and this is a sign of the explicit though unconscious sexual interest od Andrew towards Mark. In real situations of this type it is possible to come to true sexual games in which Andrew will accept “in the form of a game” even Mark’s openly sexual behaviors. Andrew and Mark can take a shower together even going into erection and laughing at this fact, can cuddle themselves for hours on the couch or even in bed without openly sexual gestures, can live substantially the life of a gay couple with a limitation: sexuality, that must remain latent.
Two young guys (18/20 years old), friends from childhood, one (Mark) comes to recognize himself gay, while the other (Andrew) remains in a state of latent homosexuality. Mark falls in love with Andrew, the mutual disinhibition is stronger at the level of gestures than at the level of words. Mark and Andrew never talk about sex explicitly. Mark perceives Andrew’s resistance to admit that the relationship that has established can have some homosexual meanings, on the other hand Andrew shows himself always available towards Mark, seeks him, sends him text messages, spends evenings with him in chat, tells him affectionate phrases that are formally in the limit of a tender friendship but that that Mark tends to interpret in another key. It happens in a completely unexpected way that Andrew lets himself go to a drift of situation increasingly gay, up to even accepting sexual contacts (intimate caresses) without any embarrassment, but without any attempt at reciprocity. Sexual intimacy can even become habitual and in these terms doesn’t create particular problems for Andrew who accepts it as something now normal (sexualized friendship). Andrea falls in love with girls who are Mark’s friends, tries to create a group in which Mark is always involved and combines without apparent contradiction a straight couple sexuality with the sexual friendship towards Mark. Andrew’s heterosexual sexuality is an assumption of principle and Andrew, while living daily sexual contacts with Mark, masturbates only thinking about girls.
In the case A there is no homosexual behavior of Andrew, in the case B Andrew is involved in real sexual activities with Mark but framed in the dimension of sexualized friendship and not of homosexuality. In both cases the guy conscious of his homosexuality (Mark) finds himself in situations of deep affective contact with his friend and of partial sexual contact. What pushes Mark (a gay guy) to continue his relationship with Andrew (a guy with latent homosexuality)? The possible answers are many:
1) Marco waits for Andrew to take autonomously an awareness of the situation, which in Mark’s eyes is unequivocal.
2) Marco hopes to be able to take, in small steps, Andrew towards an explicitly gay sexuality.
3) Mark is in love with Andrew and is willing to sacrifice his sexuality in order to remain close to Andrew whose emotional warmth he cannot do without. In this regard, experience teaches some things which it is always good to take into account :
a) Latent homosexuality is generally not a stage that is a prelude to conscious homosexuality. Latent homosexuality can last and often lasts a lifetime. The exit from the latency is linked in most cases to absolutely new and unexpected factors that pose a guy quickly in front of reality, it is usually a meeting with people not previously known or unexpected episodes with a homosexual background that begin to be the object of masturbatory fantasies. This is often the first spark that leads to the exit from latent homosexuality. Generally the gay guy who falls in love with a guy in a state of latent homosexuality is extremely cautious for fear of losing him and this makes it more unlikely that the other guy can get out of latency.
b) Gay guys who fall in love with guys with latent homosexuality often say they are totally satisfied with the relationship they live but, going deeper, they realize that frustrations are many in the first place because a gay guy, in this situation, is forced to curb his own sexuality and then because there is no possibility of addressing the discourse explicitly. A guy with latent homosexuality reasons in all respects as a straight guy, in other words his homosexuality is unknown even to himself and manifests itself only in the amorous friendship that he interprets exclusively as a simple and deep friendship. The frustrations of gay guys involved in relationships of this kind last for years, they are forced to sublimate sexuality and to make a constant effort of self-control.
c) Within a couple consisting of a gay guy and a guy with latent homosexuality, precisely because it is impossible to get to an explicit dialogue on the subject of sexuality, the possibilities of misunderstanding and false interpretations are enormous. Basically the two guys decode the sexual gestures and behaviors in a completely different way, but the situation is much more complicated than that which is created between a gay and a heterosexual because the guy with latent homosexuality shows a very wide emotional availability and somehow even a certain sexual availability that confuses the gay guy. These relationships, precisely because of the availability of the guy with latent homosexuality, are initially very inviting and rewarding for a gay guy who expects his friend to show a clearly gay sexuality in short terms, however very rarely the expectations of the gay guy have the evolution that the gay guy wants. For the above it is good to take into account the time factor, considering that many gay guys have waited for many years and needlessly for their friend to came out of latent homosexuality.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-gays-and-available-guys-with-latent-homosexuality
This post is dedicated to occasional gay sex. Gay sexuality, in its highest expression, that is affective gay sexuality, is a particularly intense form of interpersonal communication that takes place when two guys (I call them boys, whatever their age) come to share their sexual intimacy. This expression, “sharing one’s sexual intimacy”, indicates that gay sexuality, at the couple level, is fully realized only when it is the expression and perfection of a deep affective proximity, it is in fact a wanted and also desired sharing of a dimension very delicate in life like sexuality. In order to overcome the inhibitions and ritualisms learned from the outside and to put aside the individualistic vision of sexuality to move to a vision of sexuality as sharing on a deep emotional basis it is necessary that between the two guys there is a true emotional relationship and that their mutual trust is without reserve.
When two guys love each other so much that the happiness of one is also the happiness of the other, then the sexual contact between those two guys has a really profound sense of sharing. The sexual satisfaction of two boys who love each other doesn’t derive from particular sexual practices, but from perceiving that the reciprocal communication is total and that the experience of the other, even in physical terms, no longer meets any obstacle, which means that mutual availability is total and without reservations.
In other words, sexual satisfaction enhances the sense of communication and reciprocity. Gay sexuality, at a high level, that is, affective sexuality, has an essentially altruistic dimension and is absolutely incompatible with selfish and predatory attitudes or with the exploitation of the other that represents the most radical negation of the affective dimension.
Starting from this conception of affective sexuality it’s easy to understands how occasional sexual practices are a reality that cannot, in itself, be fully satisfying, precisely because occasional sex is devoid of that deep affective dimension that characterizes and makes genuinely satisfying the highest expressions of gay sexuality. No gay guy would spontaneously prefer casual sex to a serious relationship in which sexuality has a deep emotional basis. Why then is casual sex still a common reality and the search for casual sex absorbs a lot of time and lots of mental energy from gay guys?
The answer is provided by gay guys themselves, who are looking for casual sex. These guys say: “I can only have sex like that! I would love to live a sexuality as a result of a deep and mutual love, but that is only a utopia that will never be realized, while occasional sex is a common reality and basically easy to realize “.
In this answer there is some truth, in the sense that the search for casual sex is easy, but there is also something false, in the sense that the search for a sexuality that is the expression of a deep affective life is not at all a utopia although it is certainly not a simple thing to realize. In other words, the road to casual sex presents itself without obstacles and indeed seems the obvious solution to all affective problems, while the possibility of going towards a deeply emotional sexuality appears only as a very remote eventuality, at the limits of utopia. For this reason, many guys renounce to seek an affective sexuality and are content with the occasional sex, experiencing casual sex as a surrogate of actual life, i.e., often unconsciously seeking, in the occasional sex, the affective content of which the occasional sex is intrinsically lacking. Precisely for this reason occasional sex is almost always accompanied by a sense of frustration.
People who have casual sex do in fact give up a satisfactory life, because they consider it unattainable, and they invest all their energies in technical sexuality, for them sex is not a contact between people but a thing to do, in which however, they seek at least a partial emotional correspondence.
Often the search for occasional sex is theoretically accepted as a possible and very rare eventuality even by guys who at least in theory are looking for an affective sexuality. Classical is the expression: “If it were to happen I would not say no.” Apart from the health risks that in the exercise of sexual practices with strangers are definitely higher than in the sexuality of a couple who lives a strict monogamy, occasional sex tends to create a real form of dependence, somewhat similar to that created by use of drugs. The mechanism of illusion and subsequent disappointment are repeated with an exasperating continuity and frustration ends up being the obvious result of every meeting. The sense of frustration doesn’t derive from the inadequacy of this or that sexual practice or from the fact that the partner of the day is not the right one but from realizing that no sexual practice can make up for the lack of an effective and mature interpersonal relationship.
I would like to emphasize that in what I say there is no moral judgment on people, even on people who are no longer young, who seek and practice occasional gay sex. They are often victims of social prejudices and moralism who are deprived of the possibility of living a true emotional life. Evidently for these people the feeling of emotional deprivation is so profound and the prospect of creating a genuine emotional contact is so remote that they feel they can search through casual gay sex for something that at least resembles an emotional life.
I want to clarify that I got to know many gay guys and even no more young who resort to casual sex and, talking to them, I noticed that they are guys who want to talk, to confront, to create real human contacts. I’m speaking about a non-negligible percentage of the gay guys and no more guys and even more numerous are the gays who in their lives cross at least once a period dominated by the search for occasional gay sex that can replace and fill an emotional life that doesn’t become real. In the face of these things, which exist and which influence the lives of many people, because the search for occasional substitute sex often ends up being the main center of interest of a gay guy, the answers of a moralistic nature constitute the most common reaction but also the more deleterious. The phenomenon of the search for casual sex is the effect of emotional deprivation to which many gay guys are already subjected in their family.
Moralism, which presupposes a rooted prejudice, is profoundly immoral because it accentuates isolation and favors the spread of behavioral models derived from pornography that remain the only models proposed to gay guys in relation to their sexuality. Speaking in chat with gay guys I see almost every day the damage that moralism produces and I realize how the models derived from pornography end up taking root in the consciousness of many guys who struggle to break away from a typically pornographic representation of gay sexuality.
I often give many young people answers that are very far from what they expect in terms of casual sex trying to show them the real possibilities of building a true emotional life. About a third of those guys react nervously and then disappear at all but with the other two thirds a real confrontation opens up and it is incredible how much availability and seriousness can be found in these guys who are not used to the idea of being respected and of being able to talk about matters relating to sexuality in a serious way. For these guys, breaking away from the frantic search for casual sex is not easy anyway and requires a remarkable effort of will, which however becomes bearable when the concrete perspective of an authentic and gratifying emotional relationship is presented.
I must underline that when I speak of an authentic and gratifying emotional relationship, I don’t mean to refer necessarily or even essentially to a couple relationship, because the frustrated emotional needs of guys who seek casual sex go well beyond the couple relationship. The rediscovery of the authentic and gratifying affectivity of serious friendships in itself has a profound meaning in these cases precisely because it is the rediscovery of an authentic emotional dimension. The construction of true friendships, in general, has the power to revive even the most frustrated guys and to make much easier their exit from the addiction to occasional sex . Gay guys need above all affection and hope, however paradoxical it may seem, occasional sex is one of the most common responses to lack of affection and hope.
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Hello Project, I feel a bit strange to write you some things but I don’t know what to do and I would like to have the ideas a little clearer. I am 40 years old, I am gay and I have always been gay but only in the sense that my sexual fantasies have always been about guys. In practice with the female universe I don’t have and never had any relationship not even of superficial significance. Nothing against women, for heaven’s sake, but they are not my thing. But my being gay never, and I repeat never, went beyond individual fantasy. I spent periods during adolescence when I repressed myself heavily, a little conditioned by the family, a bit by religion and a bit by complexes of various kinds, I basically removed the idea of having a true relationship (I don’t even tell sexual) with another guy. Already from the time of school it was all a flee and put the idea aside. Maybe it was also good.
My first falling in love, if I had declared it, would surely have put me in great difficulty. My last year of school I fell in love with a new guy who arrived in my class and getting rid of him cost me dear, now this guy is married and has two children and I’m happy to have kept my feelings for me.
The university was a succession of love affairs blossomed and then finished before beginning. My faculty was predominantly attended by guys and for me that period could, in theory, be wonderful, but it was not. Of course there were gay guys but it was impossible to find them, when I thought I understood that a guy was gay, the obvious proof of the contrary came to me. In practice I focused on the study, I graduated very well and I immediately found work, among other things a job that I like, well paid even if very demanding. My work environment is predominantly made of guys, they are all young engineers, mostly under 30, I belong to the seniors.
My colleagues at work only talk about work, here professionalism is mandatory and letting yourself go to personal speeches is considered a dangerous weakness for the career. When we do our business dinners it’s a real liturgy, there are the great bosses and my colleagues are all present with a wives or a girls in a long dress. So here what is worthy of consideration is just the image and to make a career you have to be formal and that’s it, there is no room for friendship at any level but only for the competition. Among other things, my colleagues, even those who are objectively handsome, seem to me well programmed puppets, among other things with a critical spirit only at the technical level and aimed only at the career and otherwise stereotyped up to the incredible. So let’s say that for me the working environment is completely neutral, and now I come to the central question.
This year I was, like every year, at the beach with my parents. If I told my colleagues something like that I would disqualify because it’s just a piece of beach, nothing extraordinary. My parents have a little house near the sea, you just leave the house and in practice you’re on the beach. There are few people on weekdays but on Sundays there are groups with cars and there are a lot of people. One Sunday I stood there under the umbrella reading some papers looking for some clever ideas to spend at work, when a group of young people, 20/21 years, arrives, they take off their shirts and start playing volleyball a few meters from me, so far there is little to say, it often happens.
One of these guys immediately strikes me: tall, blond, smiling, I remain to observe him because he exerts a powerful attraction on me. I tell myself: what a beautiful guy! Lucky him! Apart from my 40 years, I don’t have and I have never had anything to be considered a beautiful guy or even an average one. I could not stare at that guy for too long because I didn’t want him to notice it, but he enchanted me, even the voice seemed beautiful to me. I went back to reading my papers but my ear was fixed on the voices of those guys. At one point I got a ball in the head that made my book fly.
That guy told me, some days after, that throw of the ball was not accidental. He approaches, apologizes by friendly as if we had known each other forever, and takes the ball. The match ends, his friends go to take a bath, he doesn’t go, as he doesn’t have an umbrella and asks if he can put himself under mine, I say “Sure!” He smiles at me, then asks me what I’m reading, in short at the end of that Sunday we exchanged the cell phones and the msn contacts. He was a guy so radically different from my colleagues that he left his mark, apart from the fact that he was very young and didn’t feel conditioned at all for this. I knew I would see him at most another time on the following Sunday, then I would have resumed work and it would all end there. I come back home at night, add his contact on msn, he’s online and we talk for three hours. In practice for the first time in my life I talk to someone who listens to me for non-professional reasons. The conversation is serious, not intrusive, it also intrigues me from this point of view.
He’s terribly direct, he says what it thinks even brutally and doesn’t forgive me any banality. I’m amazed at his intelligence and his ability to go all the way. He takes no more than a week to tell me that he’s gay, but he doesn’t make me the usual speech, like: “Now if you want, I can disappear from your life!”, no! Instead, he takes it for granted that I’m gay and tells me: “But I see that you threw it all on study and career”. No need to tell him that I was gay, he had understood it perfectly and also several other things. We chatted for hours and hours all week, he didn’t come to the sea the following Sunday but he had told me it before.
Seeing the group of his friends without him made me feel a terrible melancholy and I also told him and, as usual, he was not surprised, he just replied: “Well, I had expected it, but if you want we can meet tomorrow afternoon.” I told him that I leave work at 5.15 pm and then I go to a big supermarket outside the city to do some shopping. We went to the supermarket together. It was a beautiful afternoon, I was falling in love with that guy and he was not pulling back. The next week we went shopping again, but this time in the car he took my hand and for me it was something upsetting. He held my hand tight to make me feel that he was there and that he wanted to be there. Project, that’s how I started going into crisis.
I took him home without saying a word. Before getting out of the car he asked me: “Are you angry?” I replied: “No, but I’m worried!” And he: “Well that’s natural!” Then he pinched my cheek and went down. I was happy but a bit dazed, I would have never expected something like that.
In the following days he tells me about his impossible love stories and about the tremendous frustrations he had to endure and wants me to tell him about my impossible stories, then, as if it were obvious (maybe it was) he tells me he had masturbated thinking of me and he wants to know my reactions about this fact. I tell him I’m a little surprised, because I think he certainly has a lot of better fantasies to think about, but he asks me in a very direct way: “And you, did you masturbate thinking of me?” I try t digress but he says seemingly angry: “Answer me!” I tell him to yes, and he tells me he cannot stand my hypocritical attitudes. I feel a little uncomfortable but he doesn’t give me respite and tells me: “Do not pose as a victim! If you like it you like it!” I begin to be afraid that the relationship with this guy can be something that goes out of control. I tell him that he needs something else and that I don’t want to bind anyone, he gets angry, he tells me that I’m just a hypocrite and that he has thought about age, he’s not in love with me but he loves me, but for him I’m also an important person on a sexual level. I try to run away, I start to be really afraid of not understanding where the story is going to end.
In the following days we meet several times, I tell him a thousand times that I’m perplexed, that I’m too old but little by little we also create a minimum of physical contact, which if on one side sends me into ecstasy, for the other upsets me. He told me it cannot end this way and wants to be with me and I think it’s true. He told me and repeated that he had never been with anyone and wanted to know if it was the same for me, he concluded that there were no risks of any kind and that then in practice even a behavior at zero risk it would be enough for him. He tells me that when he is near me he feels very strong physical attraction.
Now we are at this point. What have I to do, Project? I cannot deny that I’m totally in love but the complications are many, he is very young, I don’t say it because I’m afraid that one day or the other he can go away, but because I don’t want to affect his life. I love him deeply because he is as I wanted to be and I have never been.
Project, I’m afraid of embarking on a business too big for me, which I think I cannot handle. If he were one of my peers, maybe in a slightly disengaged story I would have felt more at ease, but so, with a 20-year-old guy who is terribly smarter than I was at his age, I feel displaced. And if in two or three months I don’t feel like it? I cannot leave him half way. I really, now at least, I don’t feel the age difference too much as an obstacle, we have both reflected, then there is that speech of “I’m not in love with you but I love you” which means that I’m not really what he is looking for. Then that phrase he tried to dilute it, to devalue it, but he told me that he is not in love with me, but deep down I too don’t feel in love with him overwhelmingly and the fact is that I love him above all.
That I can be infatuated with a handsome guy 20 years old is already quite strange, but perhaps it is something that can be understood, but what can he find in someone like me? He can find as many guys as he wants a hundred times better than me, when he tried he got only refusals, but in the future he will know many guys. I wonder what he wants from me, that is exactly from me, because it seems to me that he cares a lot. Among other things, he has a dignity in his abrupt manner that so many of my colleagues would not even be able to conceive, they would call it naivety, because in our environment guys don’t even know what dignity is. But how does a 40-year-old take a crush like that for a 20-year-old guy? I feel really split in two but I know that I will have to decide. Project, but if I give in to him and also to myself, is not that I’m really doing something bad? I don’t say this on a moralistic level, but I have many doubts.
Alyosha answers: But what a very simple question! … As if you could do anything else. He told you that you were an hypocrite, but he used the wrong adjective, he would have had to say incoherent, because it’s clear that your reasoning goes in one direction and your whole body and your spirit in the other and the more your spirit comes close to him the more your reasoning becomes evanescent. I could also waste time giving you a thousand good reasons why you should say yes, but I’m intimately persuaded that while you wonder whether it is right or not, the main decision has already been made. A good old friend of mine said that the owl of Minerva begins its flight on the twilight, meant that the reflection and awareness of the movements that happen comes only at the end, when in fact those movements have concluded their work in the underground and the things that incubated in his womb are about to sprout. In short, the blooming, although it is the beginning of something completely new, is only seen at the end. See, you’ve already answered a thousand times. You answered yes when you stared intensely at him without literally being able to take your eyes off him, you said yes when he asked you to get under your umbrella, yes when he asked if he could give you his number, yes when his hand has begun to tighten yours and you will continue to say yes all the other times, for the simple reason that there is not even an alternative for you. So that’s why it’s worth turning the question to the contrary … Why not? So enjoy the moment, it couldn’t happen anything better. He has already colored your gray life full of mannequins with starched collars.
Nicomaco answers: I don’t think I’m the most suitable to give advice or make profound evaluations, because, despite having an age similar to yours, I have always lived among peers and I fell in love (when I fell in love) with peers or almost. .. (they are things that happen). Let me be clear: I’m not at all opposed to relationships of love between people so distant in age. Beautiful stories can be read in the Project. It seems to me, however, that some greater difficulties such relationships can create at the level of social acceptance (even in this forum, sometimes they have been mentioned). But I believe that the only way to overcome these difficulties depends on the awareness, the serenity and the determination with which a relationship of this kind is lived and the difficulties are faced together. And here is an element that struck me in your story. It seems to me that there is not much symmetry between feelings, emotions, desires and projects between you. On the other hand, symmetry seems essential to building a relationship of love. You are faced with an unexpected and disturbing situation, also because your life is very “structured”. You’re not in love with him, but you say you still loves him. He seems a lot smarter, less problematic, he told you that he is not in love with you, but that he loves you and that he is attracted physically. I can easily believe it because at 20 (if I think of my life) the “physical” (and hormonal) element has a considerable weight (as it should be). You wonder how he feels attracted to you but I would say that the question is a bit naive. There is no model of physical beauty that has in itself the magnet of attraction. Personally in the past I was struck (even from the point of view, so to say, “erotic”) by guys who you could consider nice, clever, whatever you want, but who weren’t beautiful according to widespread models. My impression is that if you really care about that guy, you and he still have to work on it for a while. And then I think a lot depends on what you want to do with this relationship. It may be that the situation become rebalanced and allows you to build a deep love relationship. But I think it takes time and you need a lot of patience. Or it may be that the balance could not achieved and then I would say that maybe you should be making a decision for him too.
pavloss answers: I will be short. If you, in the grip of your doubts and in order to return to your tasteless and odorless world, will say to that guy: “no, go away!”, You will spend the rest of your days repenting. When love knocks on our door, it can also be that we are not ready. But if we wait to be ready before it knocks, it will never knock.
ignis answers: Given that he is “terribly smart”, I think he would not have exposed himself if he hadn’t well evaluated all the situation. To encourage him to look for someone else seems to me the worst conclusion.
Yin-Yang replies: Hello! I read your post several times to understand all the mechanisms that haunt you, first of all the fear of falling and hurting you badly when the story will come to an end. Don’t forget, however, that it may even go differently and that the story could last longer than you hope or fear. At 40 you have a more mature vision of life but certainly more pessimistic because being gay at that age and not having a steady partner is equivalent to being alone forever … However you were lucky and you met someone who saw inside you better than you’ve ever done before. I don’t have much to say about it but my motto has always been “carpe diem” for this I dedicate to you this poem by Pablo Neruda:
He who becomes the slave of habit,
who follows the same routes every day,
who never changes pace,
who does not risk and change the color of his clothes,
who does not speak and does not experience,
He or she who shuns passion,
who prefers black on white,
dotting ones “it’s” rather than a bundle of emotions, the kind that make your eyes glimmer,
that turn a yawn into a smile,
that make the heart pound in the face of mistakes and feelings,
He or she who does not turn things topsy-turvy,
who is unhappy at work,
who does not risk certainty for uncertainty,
to thus follow a dream,
those who do not forego sound advice at least once in their lives,
He who does not travel, who does not read,
who does not listen to music,
who does not find grace in himself,
she who does not find grace in herself,
He who slowly destroys his own self-esteem,
who does not allow himself to be helped,
who spends days on end complaining about his own bad luck, about the rain that never stops,
He or she who abandon a project before starting it, who fail to ask questions on subjects he doesn’t know,
he or she who don’t reply when they are asked something they do know,
Let’s try and avoid death in small doses,
reminding oneself that being alive requires an effort far greater than the simple fact of breathing.
Only a burning patience will lead
to the attainment of a splendid happiness.”
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-doubts-of-a-gay-40-year-old