I was really pleased to be able to talk with you last night, I absolutely needed it and I enthusiastically welcome the idea of summarizing yesterday’s speech into an email that you can then enter in the forum.
I am 31 years old, in my life I have always been convinced of having a thousand problems, from the idea that I would never find a guy who loved me at the idea of not being physically and psychologically up to a serious partner and many other things. For those things I felt bad, I felt like a nothingness and I thought I had experienced the worst, the most problematic situations of life, then I met a guy and slowly, gradually, we began to love each other. I don’t know what brought us to get together but it happened.
For a long time we couldn’t live together because we didn’t have the chance, in theory we were only two good friends, but in reality we were a couple. We didn’t see each other every day, and it happened that maybe in a week we saw each other only once, but when we were together we felt really well, we learned to love each other, to understand each other, to trust each other.
I thought I had found my serenity and surely he too thought it, but suddenly he started to accuse some disorders, he went to the doctor who sent him to the specialist and he did some very thorough instrumental examinations and it became clear that my boyfriend had a very serious health problem. I don’t go into details, but it was really a bolt from the blue.
At the moment he has quite bearable disturbances, but it will not always be that way and we have been told it, now he has begun his path of illness, which, apart from the gravity of the thing in itself, will create great problems even with work, because he is employee of a large private company and when he will have to go to the hospital for therapy he will be absent from work and so he will risk dismissal. Fortunately for me I have a good job and if it were to serve I could give him a helping hand.
At the moment he has not said anything about the illness to his parents, who are elderly, have a lot of health problems and live with him, he doesn’t want to alarm them, but sooner or later they will realize that something is wrong.
My parents know my boyfriend, who has been to my house many times with them, but they thought he was just a friend of mine. Some time ago, my father, who is 70 years old, looked at me in the eye and said: “I see you’re not quiet, what’s wrong?” And I told him everything, that I was gay and that my boyfriend was sick and he hugged me and told me: “On me and your mother, you can always count and for anything.” I felt a little comforted but I’d have preferred that it was my boyfriend to feel comforted, but he can’t even talk with his parents.
My father asked me about the hospital where my boyfriend goes, and about doctors who take care about him and he said they are serious people, he knows those environments because he too has had oncological problems, now under control.
I modified my working hours to be close to my boyfriend as much as possible, I accompany him to work and I go to take him back, I always accompany him to the hospital, the doctor who takes care about him has been told that we are a couple and didn’t make a grimace. My father at one point called Steven on the phone and Steven came to my house for lunch, it’s something quite usual for us, but this time my father told Steven something that he didn’t expect: “Louis told me everything and we (i.e. he and my mother) thought that you and Louis can feel more at ease enjoying your privacy in this apartment, I and my wife can go to a little house we have in the village nearby, which is only 15 kilometers from here, but your parents would remain alone and maybe they would take it badly, I don’t know … What do you think about?” Steven was puzzled and didn’t know what to say and I too, actually. He should have left his parents’ house and it seemed unrealistic. My father, given the perplexities, didn’t insist and said only: “The proposal is always valid, if you decide to put it into practice, it is done in two days at most”.
When I took Steven back to his house and we parted, he thought that if he had been with me in the same house he would have been calmer, even for the illness, because his parents knew nothing and in case of need they wouldn’t have known what to do. He told me: “I have to try and get my parents to accept it, but they also have my sister and they wouldn’t be alone anyway … let’s see what happens.” After not even a week, my parents went to live in the village and Steven moved to my home. He was happy to be with me, it was also a way to realize a dream, but at the base of everything there was a terrible melancholy. I saw Steven smiling and seemingly quiet but I was worried about the passage of time, everything seemed to me ephemeral and frighteningly unstable.
At the moment the situation is this, Steven goes to the hospital for checks every two months, the doctors don’t talk too much, they decide what to do step by step, I bring inside me a terrible anguish and I think about what Steven is experiencing, we speak about everything, but not about the disease, which means that he is trying to remove it and not to be too much conditioned by it.
I feel embarrassed especially for sex, I swear, Project, I never know how to behave, before we had never had problems, it all came spontaneously, now to launch the idea seems inappropriate, but in the end this is also a stupid problem. He occasionally takes the initiative, we rarely get to sex, in most cases we just smile and move on. It’s different for cuddles, now there’s a lot more tenderness than before, a little to compensate for the decrease in sexuality and mainly, I think, because now we have our intimacy, we have our own home and we can nestle one against the other to see the television or just to feel that we are there and that we love each other.
Project, I would never have thought of having to face a situation like this, which puts me to the test in a violently emotional way. I am terrified of the future, doctors don’t encourage but don’t even discourage, talk about the phase of therapy towards which you are going but never talk about long-term prospects. I don’t ask questions when we go to the hospital together. Steven asks some questions and I try to memorize the doctor’s answers and to put together the pieces of the puzzle to understand something more. We have decided not to read Wikipedia and let the doctors do their work.
Sometimes in the morning I wake up next to Steven and I start to pray for Steven, and I have never been religious, but now I find comfort in the ideas of religion. Of this I cannot talk with Stephen, not so much because he is radically rationalist and unbeliever, but because for him it would be like a further confirmation that I consider his health problem insurmountable. He too, in my opinion, doesn’t see any favorable prospects at all, but he never talks about it. Sometimes, when we hug, I wonder what he is thinking but obviously he doesn’t say anything. Those moments of silence are very intense, our way of shaking hands is already very eloquent. This too is being gay and I had never imagined it.
Now I realize how absurd the problems I had a few years ago were, now I took a bath of reality that put me in touch with human nature in its fragility. I’m learning very hard lessons, I only know that I love Steven, and I will never leave him alone, I don’t want to think of a future without Steven, this idea is terrible for me and makes me cry, because I see Steven who calmly shakes my hand, I hear his voice a little hesitant and I also see him smile, it is he who tries not to make me think and to give me courage.
Now we are at this point, Project, and no one knows what is to come. I feel profoundly melancholic, I feel like a feather carried by the wind. My parents try to be present to calm the atmosphere a little, they treat Steven as if he were a son of theirs, this consoles a little, but the underlying terrible melancholy remains. I love Steven also because he has a dignity even in this situation, and doesn’t close himself in himself, on the contrary he accepts to share his anxieties with me, without too many words but with a lot of love. I stop here, Project, because I can’t go on.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-a-gay-couple-in-a-terrible-ordeal
I am a closeted thirty-year-old gay guy who lives in a very homophobic town in the rich north-east of Italy. I would like to tell you my story and ask you what you think.
Just a nod on my life until a couple of years ago, at the beginning I used to look for a real love and I never found it, maybe because I looked for it in the wrong places and with the wrong methods, then I started to go not so much for subtlety (Quiet! I have always used all the methods of prevention.)
At the age of 27, I have to say, I was a drifter of sex, in a year I had collected almost a dozen stories, which obviously were not serious things, but in the end they were even frustrating. I would have liked a normal guy who loved me and I would have gladly put the final point to all the whirlwind of my research on the apps.
One day just through an app a guy contacts me, he says he is 26 years old, we talk a bit, he’s polite, seems one not obsessed with sex, he proposes me to meet each other, I think it’s too early and I try to postpone, I expect him to disappear but it doesn’t happen. He asks me for photos but I don’t give them to him, but we keep on talking even in the following days, we talk about everything, even about sex but without overdoing it and always in a very polite way.
After three weeks of online contacts he again asks me to meet him, this time I say yes but since I don’t want problems of any kind, we agree to meet in another city and spend Saturday and Sunday together (I don’t work on Saturday). I decide to go by train so as not to be identifiable even from the license plate of the car. Note, Project, that I had never even seen a picture of him and he had never seen one of me. We meet at the station at 9.00 in the morning. I tell my parents that I have to go on a mission for two days (things like that happened other times).
I do not know who I will meet, but I feel very excited, there is something that tells me that it will not be the usual meeting “escape and flee”. When I get on the train I realize I don’t have condoms with me, but I think I can buy them there too and that they might not be useless. In the place of the appointment he is already there waiting for me, the recognition signal works (a certain newspaper under his right arm). It seems a nice guy, indeed very nice. We leave the luggage at the station depot and we go around, it’s a beautiful sunny morning.
It’s all radically different from my previous encounters, we don’t talk about sex, rather we feel a certain embarrassment, we have breakfast together, we often exchange smiles, he’s a very sweet guy, I would like to know something more about him but asking questions seems inappropriate. He knows the city, even if it is not his city and has already prepared a whole project of things to do and places to go.
I perceived his presence, there were many silences, then I asked him if he felt embarrassed and he replied: “Before seeing you, while I was waiting for you! but not now! Not at all now! And you?” “I … well I’m just fine, no problem.” Then we began to joke, to tell each other jokes. He doesn’t tell sexual jokes and uses a very clean language. We go to lunch together in a restaurant, the climate is very relaxed, peaceful, pleasant.
We walk until evening, we have dinner together, then it’s time to go to the hotel, he says: “Do you mind if we take two single rooms?” I say no, but that request cools my enthusiasm a lot. He is glad that I didn’t insist on taking a double room. We go to the hotel but there are no single rooms, he looks at me and tells me: “What can we do? Is it okay for a double room?” I spread my arms and make a sign that it’s okay too, since there’s no other way.
We enter the room, he is very embarrassed and tells me: “Now what do we do?” I tell him that I would like to have a bit of sex, I would really like it but I don’t have condoms with me and ask him if he has any, he tells me: no, but he adds that there are also the non-dangerous ways of having sex and that he especially likes them. The room is very well heated. Project, I spare you the details and I just tell you that I had never had sex like that with a guy, just mutual masturbation and a lot of physical intimacy, but it was something unique because I saw him involved in such a total way that I wouldn’t have imagined that it could even exist. It was just an exciting thing at levels I had never tried. At the end we fell asleep in each other’s arms.
In the morning we didn’t have time to repeat the experience because we had to leave the room before 10.00 o’clock. We spent the Sunday morning joking and playing with each other, then we went for lunch together and I started asking him when we could meet again. He looked at me a little embarrassed and then he told me: “There’s one thing I didn’t tell you, I’m engaged!” I felt very uncomfortable and I told him: “But how is it? You have a boyfriend and you don’t tell me?” He replied: “You didn’t understand, I have a girlfriend …”
I told him that there was something strange according to me because he didn’t seem to me a straight guy looking for distraction, he told me: “I know I’m gay, I was fine with you and I would always stay with you but I cannot, because I have a girlfriend for years and now she is part of my family and I think that in a year at most we will get married” I looked at him with a perplexed air and I asked how the sex went with the girl and he replied: “Well, somehow it works, she never noticed anything but when I do it I think about something else, I’m not straight, there’s nothing to do, if it were for me I would never have sex with a woman, when I’m there, anyway, it works all the same but it is something that I do because I must do it, and then with her I could never speak clearly because she would feel betrayed, now we are in front of everyone a very solid couple and she believes it too, I don’t think I could avoid marrying her, by now I’m too far ahead with that story, she’s a good girl but I’m not interested in girls.”
I spent the rest of the afternoon trying to get him to think, but he felt trapped and had threw in the towel, he felt resigned to being a good husband at home and a good gay, maybe with me, some Saturday nights at the hotel. He told me that he had to break away from me, that I put him in crisis, I put him in front of the responsibility of his choices but that now the choices were made and there would be no chance to go back. We took the train and we went back home.
He disappeared for two weeks, he didn’t answer to the emails or the phone, then he contacted me again, we met one afternoon and he seemed really shattered. This is what he told me:
“Here they are just caging me, I cannot stay out of it, it’s all a trap, I had to go with her for eight days in a resort abroad, all paid for by my parents! And it was a shocking thing, she was happy, I could not stand her anymore but she was the victim and I had to console her, I was forced to make love with her because otherwise she ended up in depression. She really didn’t understand anything. I thought to speak clearly but I didn’t dare to imagine her reaction and then I pretended to be worried about work reasons. I thought that in the resort we would be alone and instead her parents made us the nice surprise that they were there also them! I cannot stand it anymore! I have to go out of the cage but I don’t know how. If I said I’m gay, nobody would believe it …
“What could be done to resolve the situation? In the end we thought something that could work, he would go a couple of times to an andrologist, perhaps the first time accompanied by the girl, accusing pain in the testicles and then after the second examination it should have said that he had to do the seminogram and a few days after that the result was that he could not have children, anyway, as a gay, he would certainly not have had children from another woman.
He didn’t want to accept the whole script, it seemed to him a real hoax, but then he was aware that the alternative would be the wedding therefore he came to a milder attitude. He didn’t know whether to speak clearly with his parents, but when your parents don’t even realize that you are not well with your girlfriend and force you to go on holiday with her … to speak clearly would mean just throwing open a pot without knowing what’s inside.
In the end we have agreed all the details and all the preparatory speeches. I realize that, seen from the outside, all this seems like an expedient of the lowest alloy to avoid the coming out, but a coming out in a situation like that would have been ruinous. To realize the whole project, a low level staging, it is true, but perhaps the least traumatic solution, it took more than a month.
When he went to the girl and told her that he could not have children, the girl expected it and the recitation of the great pain had been well prepared by her family and ended with the promise to remain friends, but he wanted to return all gifts and said he preferred to permanently close an experience that had ended up being traumatic.
I summarized the whole story in a few lines but it was very demanding, stressful and even risky because, if our trick had been detected, for him it would have been a disaster, but it went well! From the following Saturday we started our meetings in the hotel in the nearby city and I think our story will continue. We’re all right together and we’re planning to change both our jobs and to move both of us to that city, away from prying eyes, he too thinks that coming out, even just in the family, is certainly inopportune. Among other things, his parents know nothing about the andrologist’s story and think that their son, the poor guy, will never marry because he cannot have children and it is good that they continue to think so.
Project, don’t look bad at me, the coming out in certain situations is not really thinkable. So we rest assured and the girl can make her life with someone who really wants her and his parents have put their soul in peace and at least there is no gossip about homosexuality because the story is all straight! Could I send him to the marriage slaughter? No! Should he expose himself to a destructive coming out? No! At least, so they are all happy and we first of all.
Let me have your news soon.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-a-gay-guy-goes-to-the-andrologist
This post is dedicated to married gays, so I will leave aside all the considerations related to sexual orientation of guys who have a straight sex life at the couple level and having a sex life typically gay at the level of masturbation, because these considerations have an important sense only before you get married.
I will start here from the situation of married gays, as I see it through the chats with people living in this condition. In my dialogues with married gay guys of all ages, the idea that when we are young, we are very often led to underestimate homosexuality and to consider it a choice and, even worse, a reversible choice, is always present. Too many times one hears people telling that one chooses to be gay and this totally false statement creeps into the brains of the guys who, forgive me the desecrating but instructive example, consider homosexuality not as their nature, i.e. as a personal fundamental characteristic but as a kind of drug that is a bad thing in itself but that can be taken in the end, in small doses, because it is taken for granted that one can come out of it when and how one wants.
Homosexuality has nothing negative and it is not a habit that leads to addiction, such as the use of drugs but it is a reality about which it makes no sense to say: “I go out of it when I want” because being gay is not a choice. The idea coming from a religious matrix of the homosexuality as a vice that if rooted leads to an addiction, that is to a vice no longer eradicable, is still widespread and continues to produce incalculable damages, inducing gays to marriage in the belief that, in the end, with an act of will, they can also choose to be straight.
The married gays know very well how much this wrong vision of things is deleterious. Very often, in socially backward reality in which homophobia dominates, children learn from an early age to see homosexuality as a disvalue, all traditional education presupposes the heterosexuality of guys and, where there are gay guys, who are eight percent of the guys and therefore are practically everywhere, causes them to repress any gay drive through feelings of guilt.
The Catholic Church still officially has attitudes that are substantially homophobic and, in substance even if not in words, incites hatred against homosexuals. With Pope Francis the tone, at the top, has changed, but eradicating homophobia from the Church is a something that seems to be destined for failure, admitted and not granted that someone really intends to attempt it.
The attitudes of the family are often backwarded and violently repressive. I invite those who have not seen it to see a very significant French film: “Juste une question d’amour” in which parents who embody two different attitudes have to face the homosexuality of the sons. When the repression of homosexuality is so strong as to induce the guys not only to eliminate external behaviors that may make people think of homosexuality but even to fight against their own homosexual instincts at a very private level by repressing spontaneous masturbation in a gay key, it becomes unfortunately possible and concrete the possibility that a guy can think not only of forcing himself not to be gay but even to be straight.
These are forms of profound violence that completely alter and I would say completely distort the affectivity and sexuality of a gay guy, who is encouraged to create a heterosexual relationships and to cultivate it by “imitating” the attitudes of other guys; in these cases the removal of homosexuality is seen as a moral merit and heterosexual sexuality is accepted as “medicine of homosexuality”.
Behind all this, the idea of sexuality as a vice and therefore as a fault is evident. On closer inspection, it is easy to understand that where very elementary and dogmatic conceptions of nature dominate, the complexity of reality is compressed into schemes derived from pure prejudices. To think that sexuality is aimed only at procreation is an assumption of principle that is systematically contradicted at the social level and in individual behavior.
The expression “against nature” has been and is still used systematically with regard to behaviors and to the same homosexual libido. Instead of knowing what variants of human sexuality are, it is much easier to consider them as deviations “against nature” or as acquired vices, or cultural choices, more or less induced from the outside. To consider homosexuality a vice rather than a variant of human sexuality means to base the whole approach to homosexuality on totally wrong grounds.
When a guy evaluates his homosexuality as a vice against which one must resist to return to true sexuality according to nature, in fact, he takes an attempt of self-repression that results in an attempt to avoid or contain masturbation, to escape from the occasions in which homosexual instincts can be more easily reawakened, to sublimate homosexuality in affectionate friendship, and, at the end, to choose of a way without return like marriage. I report here (with the consent of the author) an email I received.
“I am writing to you with great fear because I don’t know who you are, and the fact that you are gay embarrasses me. I’m 25 years old, I have distinctly felt an interest in guys for a few years, but I don’t feel repulsed by girls, now I have a girlfriend for a few months and all in all I feel quite at ease with her, she’s very sweet and she’s not obsessed with sex like some girls that I had before, we love each other, she is not at the top of my thoughts, I sometimes let myself go to pornography and in particular gay pornography, but with my girlfriend I think that a serious relationship could also be built. I want to say that if I work hard I can do without gay porn and even without masturbation for several days and I think if I had a family I could put all these things aside to dedicate myself to my family. I feel that I’m at a turning point, because if I wanted, I could arrive to the wedding and even in a short time and my girlfriend would be very happy and even our parents, and in the end, it would be good for me, but honestly for me it’s very hard to decide because then I could not go back. I would love to get married and do away with pornography once and for all. etc., but I’m afraid of doing the biggest stupid thing in my life. There is something that makes me reflect and it is the fact that I talk with my girlfriend about everything but I could not talk about my homosexual fantasies because I think that she wouldn’t really understand the meaning of such a thing, she’s fine with me, we pamper each other with a minimum of petting but she would never understand that for me there is something else, she is convinced that homosexuality is a vice that can be overcome with good will and perhaps with the help of a good psychologist. I too, years ago, tended to give for granted all these things but lately I started to think that things are much less easy than people make them look. I asked myself many questions about my future and what I really want. Recently I met a guy at the university and I started to look at him with interest, but not only for reasons of sex, as I did before, but to look at him with emotional interest, he made me feel tenderness, I wanted to stay next to him, there was also sex, but not just sex, and for the first time I began to think that for me a love story could be possible even with a guy and maybe even more with a guy than with a girl. I don’t know anything about the gay reality, which objectively scares me but I’m not at all sure that I want to give up my private and tiny gay world to go to a wedding that honestly scares me a little because in the end it could be a real trap. But now what have I to do? My girlfriend expects the wedding, like our parents and friends, etc. etc .. I think I need someone who forces me to admit things that I now see even by myself, even if then transforming the clarity of ideas that I’m gaining into concrete actions is really difficult.”
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-homosexuality-as-a-guilt-pathology-and-marriage-as-a-remedy
Hello Project, I need to vent myself and maybe even of an advice. At the moment I’m a bit out of my mind because I broke up with my partner (life partner) and I don’t know what to do, we had, fortunately only rented, a shared apartment but the contract is registered only under my name. At the beginning we paid it dividing the expenses, but now I’ll have to pay for it only of my own, and then the world has fallen on me, but I cannot stay with him anymore. We have not broken for problems of betrayals or for various jealousies but for money matters, you understand, Project, just money.
I am 34 years old, he one less, we both work, he earns more than me, not much more than me, but more than me. Our families have never sailed in gold, neither his family nor mine. As a kid I was used to not throwing money and I know how much effort it takes to earn it. We live together in the same apartment for years, we share the expenses, I try to save money because I don’t want to find myself bad and even worse to ask my parents for money, for him instead to ask for money is not a problem, but has become a habit, but I don’t mean asking for money to do something concrete, like furnishing the kitchen, but to throw them away in the most incredible ways. For the last Christmas I had made some savings “with a maximum effort” and I had put aside 500 euros to make him a gift, since he is always chasing money.
I gave him the 500 euros, he came out and spent all of them in less than an hour, he bought two shirts of 100 euros each and 300 euros of books, which of course are still in the bookshop package. I was very upset, then he went to ask his parents for money for Christmas. Recently “for two months in a row” he spent all his salary in 15 days and then came to me because he didn’t even have the money for the bus. Frankly, I cannot stand anymore such a situation. We have filled home with absurd things, bronze samovars, books written in who knows which language and expensive furnishings that are completely out of context. When I tried to reason with him about these things he remained very upset, he looked like a beaten dog but then he didn’t change attitude and at the first opportunity he was ready to throw away all his salary from the window. I really loved this guy and I tried for years to underestimate his ways of doing but sometimes I just cannot stand it anymore.
Last year we took a new car, I would have taken the cheaper basic model, not him, because a bigger engine has more recovery, because with the alloy wheels security is greater, etc. etc. and we ended up increasing the price by almost 30% adding options that are absolutely useless. Last week he began to say that the house is small and that he would rent a bigger apartment and it made me nervous: but who gives us the money to pay for a bigger house? He began to talk about asking for a loan but he said it “seriously”, therefor I began “seriously” to worry and to think that in his brain certain mechanisms are jammed and that maybe he just tries to keep his feet on the ground without succeeding.
I tell you, I just felt moments of panic, I said to myself: how can I go on with a guy like this? It’s better that I go my way because with him a real dialogue is not possible, just he doesn’t realize, I sent him back to his parents and I told him that I wanted to be alone “for a while”, he then called me on the phone with the usual abandoned dog air and this has aroused in me a tide of scruples and I don’t know what to do, I would like to be with an adult who is able to control himself but he is not so, is a very good guy but in some things he doesn’t have a minimum of self-control, it’s like a child who doesn’t understand the value of money.
What should I do Project? Have I to pretend nothing at least in words this time and then always pretend nothing? I love him but the idea of getting back together doesn’t excite me, it would still be a compromise choice. I could even pretend that it’s nothing, hoping that something will change but I already know that nothing would change. What do I have to do?
I can only laugh, rather than cry bitterly, reading this post! The situation is very particular and focuses on some issues of a couple’s relationship:
1) home economy;
2) respect for money;
3) respect for the partner;
4) respect for the parents (of the partner of the writer).
That said, I would have two dispassionate advices:
a) if the two really love each other and if this money story is the only stain in the relationship, the two could continue to live together and the guy with his feet on the ground could register expenses and make the partner understand one of the basic principles of the home economy, namely that if TOT enters and TOT is spent, there is a budget balance; if TOT enters, and 2 TOT is spent, a debt accumulates; if 2 TOT enters, and TOT is spent, there is gain! It is certainly not high finance! Obviously, this registration serves to educate the partner and, once educated (in a short time hopefully), it should end up because registering all expenses is not really nice!
b) if the two love each other but the situation is truly unsustainable – I imagine that the guy with his feet on the ground has not a few anxieties and tachycardia about this absolutely unnerving situation – the road to follow can only be one: leave, remaining just friends, but following everyone his own road! On the other hand, one considers himself as a life partner, not as a nanny.
A wish you true happiness, dear writer.
In my opinion the money has little to do with all the story or better the money management has in some way just something to do with the management of feelings. In southern matriarchal families it is quite usual that it’s the woman who collects the money of all the family members and then decides how to spend them. Unfortunately I realize that certain automatisms, right or wrong they are, in a gay couple don’t exist, because the roles are not so obvious, among other things I cannot even say if it is bad in itself. The point is that those who control the money that a person can spend control the movements of that person, affect their way of thinking and reasoning. And in a gay couple there are two different ways of doing, well beyond the mere problem of money. Right or wrong, his positions and his attitudes towards the world are radically different from yours, dear thrifty.
He lives more for today and with less thoughts on his mind. I state that about cohabitation I don’t understand anything, but in short, his money is only his and yours is only yours. Once you have split your expenses in half with his money, he can do whatever he wants, if he then asks you for money after having spent everything, don’t give him it. So I don’t understand why you should keep his money. If then when he has finished his money he asks his parents, it’s not your problem. His relationship with his money is not your business, he manages it as he wants. In short, behind this money business, I see more an attempt to influence his way of thinking, doing and behaving, and I also see a certain frustration and a sense of betrayal that you feel if he doesn’t do what you think should be done.
Save money, be moderate in spending etc. etc. they are not values in themselves, they are not right in themselves, I mean, but they are right only for you. In short, it isn’t said at all that despite the fact that you and your boyfriend are two different persons you aren’t able to stay together, but my dear writer, you should give up your attempt to change him and you shouldn’t even let him change you. In short, I repeat, divide the expenses as you were two simple roommates and when he is in trouble don’t help him. Sooner or later he will get rid of his bad habit if he realizes that when he needs money he has to earn it by himself. But if there is more, in short … you will reason on your own, I feel seriously too little expert to give advice on such long stories …
Sorry if I intrude in the discussion, I read carefully the first post and the answers of Konig and Alyosha, given that it is not only a problem of gay couples, even heterosexual couples face financial obstacles day by day in order to move forward, there can be discussions, clarification of ideas, none of us is perfect, Someone can buy too many books, CDs, shoes, shirts, home furnishings for the bedroom or kitchen, whatever you want, but, and I say it with full knowledge of the facts, if you decide to be a couple, you do it after you know thoroughly the mate, because it is not possible, after attending each other for a long time, to discover things that were not seen before or you did not want to see, it is too easy to create a couple and then destroy it for reasons that can be overcome with a serious and responsible speech. When you are more than 30 years old, you should already know how expensive life is (in every sense). If the financial problem is an excuse to want to download the partner, then it is another matter …
I am very perplexed. I don’t think that the guy who writes wants to “download” his partner for reasons of money, I think, rather, that he loves him and fells very upset in front of the irresponsible behavior of the one close to him. The fact is that the problem he throws on the carpet is true and undoubtedly goes beyond money. When a person takes into account that he doesn’t exist only for himself but for another one with which he makes a family, all the possible problems, even if they may appear very difficult to overcome, are considerably dampened. The ability to adapt as a couple must not come from one side only. If it comes from only one part, sooner or later the equilibrium is lost and a “no return” process starts, as seems to be the case described by this guy. I have the impression that the spendthrift guy is rather closed in himself, willing to see only his reasons, is quite spoiled (asking frequently one’s parents or family for money when you have a job and earn money it is not decent in my opinion!). If he is willing to get out of this vicious circle he can very well recover the couple relationship with his partner, otherwise he will compromise it forever (and it seems very real, this) but he will also lose his true balance in relation to life.
The man who sees his partner unbalance this way, rightly dreads because he also feels himself dragged into a paradoxical situation that he would never want. I would simply put him in front of an aut-aut: “Either you change or I go my way”. In fact, what kind of “love” is what forces the other to humiliation and indigence for a total inability to have a relationship with money? Here on the part of the spendthrift there is a hermetic closure on himself that is to absolutely avoid, if you want to live as a couple. Otherwise it is better that everyone stays on his own. I met a similar case in the heterosexual world. An uncle of a friend of mine, long ago, married a woman who wanted luxury and forced him to do crazy shopping, far beyond his financial capacity. At one point, the indebted man saw that his life partner was never happy: obtained 100 she wanted 1000, obtained 1000 she wanted 10,000 and so on. They ended up divorcing and, by law, because they had a son, he had to help her keep the son. The son, became an adult, for years went to his father asking for money, saying “Dad I’m used to living in luxury, I cannot do without it”. Meanwhile, his father entered an acute depressive crisis of which his ex-wife and son were responsible. Recently he committed suicide. This shows how a deranged relationship can also lead to extreme situations.
pavloss wrote: “I don’t think that the guy who writes wants to “download” his partner for reasons of money, I think, rather, that he loves him and fells very upset in front of the irresponsible behavior of the one close to him. … When a person takes into account that he doesn’t exist only for himself but for another one with which he makes a family, all the possible problems, even if they may appear very difficult to overcome, are considerably dampened. … what kind of “love” is what forces the other to humiliation and indigence for a total inability to have a relationship with money?”
I absolutely agree with you, pavloss: the two are a couple, a family, so the debts of one are also debts of the other, and this in my opinion escapes the reading of Alyosha, which sees the two as entities absolutely detached, each extension of himself. Not to mention that as long as there are parents of the spendthrift, all is well. Once disappeared, where does he go to ask for cash? He would end up charging himself and the couple of debts, creating many problems! If then there are assets to be seized for breaches or lack of finances by the spendthrift (and maybe pulling out parents), since the two reside in the same place, the creditors will go into the couple’s house and take furniture and whatever belongs to THEM, not only to the spendthrift but to the couple!
Pavlos and Konig say things that I also feel mine. I state that soon (as far as possible) I would like to organize a themed evening in chat entitled “what does it mean to have a guy” because I think that the concept of couple is still seen in a very vague, while, in the couples who go on, there are inevitably shared economic balances and shared responsibilities that guarantee the stability. Indeed, Gianni is right when he says that before creating couple you should know your partner very, very well, to evaluate not only the reliability in terms of emotional stability and fidelity of the couple, but also in terms of respecting the commitments undertaken and also of objectively adult behavior. In gay couples there are no legal obligations and there are no children and the couple, if it goes on, it’s only for its internal cohesion, such a couple certainly has emotional and sexual components and whatever you want, but also depends on the reliability of each of the partners.
I will only give you an example. How do you see a couple in which one of them is systematically one hour late for appointments and never warns if he doesn’t come back or if he’s late, etc. etc.? You can tell me that such thing are trivial but basically they are forms of disrespect and disaffection. A couple is a small company that has its own resilience and resistance, but has also its limits. Without reaching the extremes of which pavloss speaks, for a guy, seeing in the partner an irresponsible behavior, that despite the work doesn’t make him economically autonomous, it is really worrying, and seeing that speeches are useless and that the partner thinks of everything but the couple and his mate, is truly discouraging. If an older guy behaves like a kid it’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that he’s immature, and feeling in couple with an immature guy is frankly depressing.
Alyosha wrote: “I state that about cohabitation I don’t understand anything, but in short, his money is only his and yours is only yours.”
Well, living as a couple, being a couple, doesn’t mean being 1 + 1, that is, two small singularities, but exactly a couple, a family in short, in which you have to keep under control your defects for the good of the whole family.
When a couple is together for so many years, money management becomes an important issue. Money establishes lifestyle, values, priorities, even serenity, as the story of this guy demonstrates. The use of money tells us a lot about what we are. Now it is obvious that this story is anyway a point of view, but there are objective data that make us reflect. The excesses create real problems. Living with a person who borders on compulsive shopping or, at the opposite end, with a person with an unexpected stinginess is a fatigue that can be intolerable. In the first case you can get involved in debts that your partner is likely to contract, because cohabiting with another guy, it is difficult, as Alyosha would like, to stay out of the consequences. In the second case, referring for example to heterosexual couples, one also comes to speak of economic maltreatment when one of the two partners limits the other in expenses that are actually necessary. We should find a meeting point. But in some cases it is not easy to reach it, because the use of money refers to significant meanings and life choices.
Could the author of the email renounce the serenity and dignity that derive from the savings? Perhaps in the same way the partner cannot give up many objects, which represent something fundamental for him. There are people who don’t go out if they do not wear a signed garment: this is a sad reality, but anyway very real. What are objects for many people? They are something that defines them, which guarantee them a status, which increase their self-esteem. I think this guy has tried to change things and that his putting himself apart can also be, from his point of view, an extreme attempt to make the person he loves sober.
Thanks for the underlining, Editor. I hope that things are better for you, What have I to tell you? Next time you will tell us how your relationship is working, at least I was honest. The life of a couple is something that for me doesn’t exist at the moment, I would like it, as all of us, I think, but I don’t crucify myself for the fact that there is not and I try not to think about it! I can only say what I think in the abstract, because something I think (don’t worry, I have this flaw and many others) and for fairness I have to premise that they are only ideas and not real experiences. Inheriting the heterosexual model in my opinion it’s a mistake, being in two but not sharing the management of children is not a detail.
The heterosexual family remains focused on offspring, the gay one definitely not. Sharing spaces, times, emotions, ways of reasoning is one thing, merging one into the other, “complementing” is another one. Among other things, it is not said that heterosexual couples working like this, go well. The idea that everyone should have his own things, however, seems fundamental to me, this is the premise for every possible sharing. If the division of goods is already done in heterosexual couples, I don’t see why the idea that everyone manages his money as he wants, once the common expenses are covered, cannot be a solution. I repeat there are no children to grow and this is not a detail. It doesn’t just mean not having the responsibility of a third party in the couple, but also have no one to whom we can leave our savings, so the fundamental question is: what do you keep making money for?
I’m not saying that spending everything is a right lifestyle, but I don’t think it’s that wrong either. Not having children as a common project, requires a shared project of another nature, that is to have an idea of a solid common future. I repeat, in my opinion, it is not bad either, the children cover too many times the total absence of common background visions, so I repeat: the fact that many hetero couples simply go on like this, doesn’t mean that they go well. If a “filìa” is missing, first of all in the sense of thread that connects, even before that in the sense of bond and love, if a son is missing who could be somehow like a thread, as I see it, a gay couple in the long run does not have many possibilities, but I can be wrong, I have premised on purpose not to have great experiences in this regard. If, as usual, here there were no basic preconceptions, to push to stigmatize the “spendthrifts”, we would immediately realize that the reasoning also works in reverse.
In short, everyone for what I read, would like to pull in his direction and this is not possible, the thread if too much pulled, breaks. The problem I see is definitely another: this guy is spoiled. When the money ends he asks his parents or his boyfriend, here is the mistake in my opinion. Everyone is free to do what he wants, but he must assume responsibility for his decisions. If every time he’s in trouble someone will help him, this guy will never grow up. Hence the advice not to help him, the ideal would be that not even the family would help him, but on that you cannot do much. But on one thing I would like to be frank, if people are continually treated as irresponsible, there is nothing to complain if they become really irresponsible.
And the idea that my boyfriend has to deal with my money, would make me irresponsible and would be in essence the exact equivalent of what my parents do when they give me the money. If this is the situation I can only share the choice made by the guy who wrote, that is let him go, I simply didn’t want to reduce him to an economic issue. I read Barbara’s comment now and it’s what I mean: on the surface we see the management of money, underneath there’s a world. In Italy there is not even the recognition of gay couples, if a guy asks for a loan for a house he puts it on his paycheck crying alone the legal consequences if any. One could very well find an agreement whereby the other pays half of the mortgage payments exactly as he now pays half of the rent. I know that if the differences in the vision of things are too many, you cannot continue to be together and that’s exactly what I’m trying to say.
But if I had to make the decision to leave my partner it would not be only for an economic question because, sorry if I repeat all the time, under the economic issues there are other things, perhaps more important. Everything we do in modern society needs money and if someone claims to come to manage for me the money that I make on my own, in reality he claims to manage my person, I just wanted to emphasize this. Having said that, I remove the trouble, I leave the field to the experts of the couple. Experts not in a polemical sense, but in the sense of having had experiences, which I personally don’t think I have. Forgive me Editor if I allow myself, but the sum has been taught to me in primary school, the next time tell me something that I don’t know already. Good continuation.
It is very interesting what you say about the fact that it is not said that gay couples should follow the same rules as the other couples. He reminded me that there are also heterosexual couples in whom the use of money is separate. It would be interesting to understand which solution is better. In a heterosexual couple, a good percentage of women contribute by working at home, but it is true that many women feel a discomfort in feeling “maintained” by their husbands. The fact remains that it is difficult, especially in a “lean time” like this, to apply the rule of separation of money, if for example one of the two loses the job. Here the situation is different. The guy’s companion makes consciously (I don’t know how much …) choices that go beyond his own economic possibilities. And rightly, as Alyosha points out, to see that your partner puts you regularly in front of the fait accompli, assuming that you have to cover his budget holes, asks you a few questions about the relationship: does this partner respect me? Do he respect my freedom, my values, my efforts? Does this partner want an equal relationship or does he want to turn me into an acquiescent parent? a relationship like this corresponds to my needs?
Barbara wrote: Does this companion want an equal relationship or does he want to turn me into an acquiescent parent? I thought exactly this. In reality I dared even more in my reasoning, because I fear that the person who wrote the post can take slowly the role of parent but he has probably in mind a different parenting. When a relationship begins behind each of the two partners there is always the fabric of our fundamental relationships. In my opinion it would be decisive if, in the meantime, the guy who wrote would took off this role of a quasi-parent. One partner evidently gives it to the other and the other takes it. Surely from this point of view to loosen a little bit the stress it can useful to entrust each one his own money once the common expenses have been covered.
As usual I can be wrong, but that: “I sent him back to his parents” a little made me think of the idea of a package to send back to the sender and helped me to reinforce the idea that this guy is considered not only an irresponsible, but almost like an inert object to displace from one place to another. Even the idea of maneuvering his money for him is very reminiscent of the idea of moving it, as if it were inanimate. Behind the reactions of the parsimonious guy there is also the attitude for which his ideas are all right and the other is a kid. What’s absurd about wanting a mortgage to buy a more beautiful home? Ok, maybe materially it will not be feasible, but it’s not an absurd thought. And what’s absurd about the idea of wanting a car with a big displacement? So you understand that the type that writes is not fascinated by cars, unlike his partner. Why are the more relaxed behaviors all considered weird? And in spending all the money on the books? What’s there really wrong?!?!?!
They are not “strange” ideas as they are represented, but only other visions of the world. As I see it, one can and must seek agreement, but only if the other is placed at our same level (and therefore is not helped when he makes mistakes, in the sense that has emerged) and if his vision of the world, however different from ours it may be, has in our eyes equal dignity compared to ours. If there is not this condition of substantial parity, but one is more “high” for some reason than the other, higher up with his moral code, with his judging gaze, no agreements are possible, because agreement by definition presupposes that we are all on the same level. If there is a difference in the relationship, there are more or less peaceful forms of bargaining on things to do, but it still remains the idea that one of the two guys has the responsibility to do for both while the other should simply take in loan in his behaving the code of values of the first.
There remain only different forms of control over people, however frustrating for those who exercise this control, because given the situation described, it seems clear to me that the other doesn’t prove a performer so reliable of the will of the first (even if the first keeps saying that his mate understood the lesson). It is also clear that the parents of the spendthrift still retain a power, which they will exploit if necessary. For parents, treating a guy as a capricious child who must be satisfied is a sure way to keep him connected to them and not make him develop mature relationships and according to what I read in the conclusions it is a method that works great! However, the division of expenses I thought of it as an initial phase, I repeat, as I see it, letting both partners have their spaces of autonomy is the indispensable step for every possible sharing. Slowly, as agreements on things are found, the number of expenses faced together would grow in a spontaneous and progressive way. But it is only a hypothesis, I cannot say how much in fact it can be concretized.
You, Alyosha, wrote: “As usual I can be wrong, but that: “I sent him back to his parents” a little made me think of the idea of a package to send back to the sender and helped me to reinforce the idea that this guy is considered not only an irresponsible, but almost like an inert object to displace from one place to another.” Come on, Alyosha, we are not doing the exegesis of a passage by an author, the writer has simply used an ironic hyperbole to say that his prodigal boyfriend went back home to his parents, or that he asked him to come home to his parents for the moment. About the fact that his boyfriend is an irresponsible, I don’t think there is any doubt at all: it is absolutely evident! But you also say:
“And what’s absurd about the idea of wanting a car with a big displacement? So you understand that the type that writes is not fascinated by cars, unlike his partner. Why are the more relaxed behaviors all considered weird? And in spending all the money on the books? What’s really wrong?!?!?!” There’s really nothing wrong … in the fantasy world or if you’re a “maintained”. We can reason clearly in the abstract, but in my opinion a fact that often escapes your discussion is that of practicality: that is, one can spend all his money in books, ok! But then what do you eat? The pages of the book? How do you pay your bills? Certainly not with the sheets of the book! So if one cannot distinguish his primary needs (eat and pay bills first), from secondary and unnecessary (if you buy a utility car instead of a big car, it’s always a car that you buy), he should really do an accelerated course of life!
I quote pavloss: “Either you change or I go my way”, the effort must be of both of them not of just one, otherwise the relationship becomes a repressing one’s own frustration, there are things that are only discovered during cohabitation and it is precisely for this that the cohabitation in a relationship is the litmus test, because one experiences being together and living side by side day by day and one can see all the moods and attitudes of the partner throughout the day every day. Returning to the beginning of my post, I think you have to give him an ultimatum, after all it’s for years that you tolerate this continuous wasting money, if he really loves you, he will try to change, in the end, you’re not asking him to limit himself in who knows what but just to save something because even if it’s not your money it’s also for his good that he has to change, because even if he doesn’t ask you for money, he will continue to ask his parents (who spoil him so, even if I don’t know anything about the situation) and also to ask friends, maybe untrustworthy and dishonest friends …
My speech wanted to go somewhere else, what to tell you? Keep on thinking it’s just a matter of money and practicality, for what I gain from it, I don’t care at all. A minimum effort to go a little bit beyond the surface of things could be done sometimes, maybe it’s useful or maybe it’s perfectly useless. My text is not an exegesis, but the impression I received from the complex of things I read. And I repeat, I have very much the idea that behind the claim to manage the money of the other there is a desire to condition his movements. The idea of sending him back like a parcel post confirms the impression I had of it. In a country submerged in debt I would not be surprised if someone bought a car in debt with a safe income. It is the other who sees his boyfriend’s ideas as weird and doesn’t give him any basic legitimacy, that instead they should recognize each other!
Now I stop in fact, not being able to interact with the direct interested, this discussion seems to me basically a school case, because all the arguments and all the possibilities are in principle possible. In general, however, if it should make sense to ask for advice, it is good to help to reflect on what one is doing, not just to say that it is right or wrong. Right and wrong, in my opinion, don’t even exist, therefore it sounds very strange to argue that in a relationship one of the partners is completely right and the other is completely wrong, I couldn’t even conceive a similar thing.
Hello everyone, I joined recently and I find it very interesting an exchange of views, such as the one allowed by this blog. Meanwhile, I would like to respond to this message, I have to premise that I’m 28 years old and I too, years ago, had a story that came to an end because of the money that my boyfriend was continuing spending. I point out that I bought a house while he has a flat in his mother’s cottage. I paid and still pay a mortgage, while the rest of the expenses we would have to theoretically divide. But it was never like that, because I saw that he was always without money already in the middle of the month and then he asked me for money on loan, so what would I have had to do? In addition to my first job, every night I went to work in a take away pizzeria to earn only a few pennies. When I had a little bigger expenses, I could never count on him because he never had any money.
So, do you still say that money has nothing to do with it? In my opinion, money certainly have something to do with the end of my relationship: why did I have to go and do a second job in order to be financially quiet and he, instead, was at home playing in front of the PC? He was missing money more than me. Perhaps the fault was only mine because at first I didn’t remark the thing, but unfortunately, when you persevere, you end up with an inevitable rupture of the relationship. I cannot say that I still don’t like him very much, but going back and put me together with him another time together would be useless. In fact, now I’m only working based only on my first job, if I had to change my mind about restoring the relationship, maybe I would ruin my existence, I would be condemned to a second job forever to maintain him. But who makes me do it? And furthermore, I also ask you: who makes you do it? At some point in life, people is no more able to change, if they have been accustomed since children in a certain way, they will always remain the same. At 40, we cannot change anymore.
I report my experience: I started working a few months after we met, he started working roughly 5 years later. I immediately opened an account in my name. After some time we decided to open a joint account and I gave him an ATM and a credit card. It was normal for me that he could use all the money we had if he needed it, and I didn’t go to check expenses. I didn’t “lend” him money. I usyally lend money but just for work in the bank but but I gave money to my love only in custody and administration. Now we both contribute to our finances, we have the same attitude with respect to money. An attitude antithetical to that of my mother, who burns whole her money (it is she who pays practically all the household expenses – the two of us contribute just to maintenance) but she throws away from the window thousands of euros a year in stupid things.
Now I remember my poor father crying, while he was dealing with bank statements, now I’m an adult and I understand him, seeing how upsetting me is that my mother is unable to keep money when she has some in her hand. My love and I are really afraid to find the house mortgaged because my mother had to buy a new handbag or a woman dress. if you have not understood yet, I live with my love and my mother happily under one roof. In the case of the guy with a boyfriend prodigal, on my opinion he should make the matter very clear. since the recklessness of his boyfriend’s expenses is very difficult for him to bear, he should impose an ultimatum: fixed a sum of tolerable monthly expenditure, he should make his friend to allow him save the rest, to put it on a savings account, in a glass jar above the fridge, under to the mattress, or wherever you like.
The boyfriend is not able to manage himself, so he has to be managed if he doesn’t want to be single again. Now if this is an impassable wall, not wanting to accept the condition can become the yardstick of the love tried, not so much for the money itself, but for the lack of capacity for sacrifice. Sometimes he seems to behave like would a child. I notice that in gay couples one of the two partners behaves often like to a capricious child, so it is right to pose as a kindergarten teacher. No kidding. As for the money that he is given away by his parents, nothing wrong, let’s see it as an anticipation of inheritance
Interesting this thread, I had escaped it. I wonder if the guy of the email has tested the hypothesis that his boyfriend may have some pathological type of obsessive-compulsive disorder, which causes him to arise the urge to buy large quantities of things even perfectly useless or even completely outside of his economic scope. And in fact there are also “accumulators”, i.e. people who feel the need to fill the house of the most unimaginable and disproportionate amount of junk (whether expensive or not). When the gap starts to become so excessive, unfortunately, saying simply that “he’s a flawed person” may no longer be able to explain the situation. After all, by analogy, a compulsive addiction disorder, perhaps more disastrous but not dissimilar, is that of gamblers, who fail to realize what they are doing and are unable to stop.
Telemachus, in fact the pathology exists, the “shopping addiction”, more widespread among women, and difficult to identify among men, for a whole series of social conventions to which you refer. Buying a car with a disproportionate cost, as well as spending dizzying amounts to cultivate a hobby is something that has a certain social recognition and above all it’s not normally considered “shopping”. A friend of mine studied such problems for the thesis. In general, the nomenclature has never impressed me much, but it is only my personal point of view.
Hello, now I have solved the problem convincing me that I will stay alone, without a boyfriend. In fact, I stay with the payments for the car I bought thanks to a loan in my name and I’m still paying. I am waiting in vain for the slow return of the sums I have lent him. Especially now that he’s jobless I don’t even know what I have to do. Here’s what it means to trust. I think my eyes were just closed to persuade me to do something like that. Mah!
I find myself in the same situation as the writer … but with the opposite role. I’m a little younger than my partner and I like going out with friends, I like beautiful things … My partner is very thrifty, he has defined an annual budget within which the expenses of our couple must be limited. I recognize that being told that we cannot afford the restaurant or the cinema every weekend is frustrating and that feeling we are not rich is very unnerving (I know, I have no absurd claims, sometimes just a few “I’d like”, but never a “I must have It”). But I also know that he is right. At first I was offended by his reproaches. Then I realized that being part of a couple, I didn’t have to think about myself, but about us. My partner, it must be said, is not an inveterate prohibitionist, a fervent supporter of Zwinglian rigorism. He also likes to spend money sometimes. But when money is scarce and work is uncertain, I admit it’s fair to take some responsibility. If the writer’s boyfriend is able to understand what it means speaking about a “we”, then perhaps there is hope of fixing things. Anyway, however … the thing seems to me a bit pathological.
If you like, you can join the discussion on this post on Gay Project Forum: http://gayprojectforum.altervista.org/T-gay-couples-and-money